Discussion:
[CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian
(too old to reply)
Andrei POPESCU
2014-02-11 22:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Let the flames begin...

----- Forwarded message from Don Armstrong <***@debian.org> -----

Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:39:04 -0800
From: Don Armstrong <***@debian.org>
To: debian-devel-***@lists.debian.org
Subject: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian
Mail-Followup-To: debian-***@lists.debian.org
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)

The technical committee was asked in #727708 to decide which init
system would be the default init system for Debian. The decision is
below:

==== RESOLUTION ====

We exercise our power to decide in cases of overlapping jurisdiction
(6.1.2) by asserting that the default init system for Linux
architectures in jessie should be systemd.

Should the project pass a General Resolution before the release of
"jessie" asserting a "position statement about issues of the day" on
init systems, that position replaces the outcome of this vote and is
adopted by the Technical Committee as its own decision.

==== END OF RESOLUTION ====

Additional discussions regarding the technical policy necessary for
implementing this decision are anticipated and will be carried out via
the normal technical policy procedure.

Please see http://bugs.debian.org/727708 for discussion of
this bug.
--
Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com

If I had a letter, sealed it in a locked vault and hid the vault
somewhere in New York. Then told you to read the letter, thats not
security, thats obscurity. If I made a letter, sealed it in a vault,
gave you the blueprints of the vault, the combinations of 1000 other
vaults, access to the best lock smiths in the world, then told you to
read the letter, and you still can't, thats security.
-- Bruce Schneier



----- End forwarded message -----
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers:
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic
http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt
Ralf Mardorf
2014-02-11 22:45:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrei POPESCU
Let the flames begin...
I'm aware that it isn't off-topic, anyway, I strongly recommend to
discuss systemd at
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic .

Once a pros and cons systemd discussion develops its own dynamics and
this most certainly will happen, the list will be spammed by hundreds of
useless mails. Furthermore, wouldn't it be easier to link to the many
flames about systemd, that are already available by mailing list
archives?

The pros and cons today are still the same as they were a long time ago.
Brian
2014-02-11 23:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Post by Andrei POPESCU
Let the flames begin...
I'm aware that it isn't off-topic, anyway, I strongly recommend to
discuss systemd at
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic .
On- or off-topic the invitation issued appears to be a blatent attempt
to disrupt the normal business of this mailing list. I am surprised and
dismayed considering the source it purported to come from.
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Once a pros and cons systemd discussion develops its own dynamics and
this most certainly will happen, the list will be spammed by hundreds of
useless mails. Furthermore, wouldn't it be easier to link to the many
flames about systemd, that are already available by mailing list
archives?
I agree ; if the past is anything to go by your prediction could turn
out to be correct. However, people are generally sensible so, after
absorbing Don Armstrong's post and reading all the discussion in bug
#727708, they may resist the temptation to contribute to the flamage.
Post by Ralf Mardorf
The pros and cons today are still the same as they were a long time ago.
It would be astounding if any responses had anything novel or gripping
to say on the subject.
Chris Bannister
2014-02-12 05:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian
Post by Ralf Mardorf
Post by Andrei POPESCU
Let the flames begin...
I'm aware that it isn't off-topic, anyway, I strongly recommend to
discuss systemd at
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic .
On- or off-topic the invitation issued appears to be a blatent attempt
to disrupt the normal business of this mailing list. I am surprised and
dismayed considering the source it purported to come from.
I didn't read it as an invitation, but as a statement/observation.
(Have you read some of the language in that bug report? Atrocious! :) )

I tried systemd - booted really fast, but it didn't honor any console
font settings I had. I groaned and reverted back realising, after seeing
quite a bit of discussion, that there was another setup to learn! In
this case the learning would be mandatory if I wanted to get my console
back the way I had it!

I expect that helping people configure and use systemd will become part
of the normal business of this mailing list.
--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
Tom H
2014-02-12 08:06:51 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:12 AM, Chris Bannister
Post by Chris Bannister
I tried systemd - booted really fast, but it didn't honor any console
font settings I had. I groaned and reverted back realising, after seeing
quite a bit of discussion, that there was another setup to learn! In
this case the learning would be mandatory if I wanted to get my console
back the way I had it!
I expect that helping people configure and use systemd will become part
of the normal business of this mailing list.
I would've expected systemd to respect Debian's native console setup
(and this might be worthy of a bug report).

systemd uses "/etc/vconsole.conf".
James Allsopp
2014-02-12 09:27:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
After reading through all the pros and cons, it seems that there isn't a
good replacement at all, so it would be better to wait. Admittedly I use
OpenRC on my gentoo machine and it's fine. Systemd seems to violate too
many Unix principles and Upstart has problems with the canonical copyright
licence issues. I'd hate to see Linux get pulled apart between Red Hat and
Canonical, so it's important that Debian doesn't act precipitously.
James
Post by Tom H
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:12 AM, Chris Bannister
Post by Chris Bannister
I tried systemd - booted really fast, but it didn't honor any console
font settings I had. I groaned and reverted back realising, after seeing
quite a bit of discussion, that there was another setup to learn! In
this case the learning would be mandatory if I wanted to get my console
back the way I had it!
I expect that helping people configure and use systemd will become part
of the normal business of this mailing list.
I would've expected systemd to respect Debian's native console setup
(and this might be worthy of a bug report).
systemd uses "/etc/vconsole.conf".
--
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
Scott Ferguson
2014-02-12 11:36:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Allsopp
Hi,
After reading through all the pros and cons, it seems that there isn't a
good replacement at all, so it would be better to wait. Admittedly I use
OpenRC on my gentoo machine and it's fine. Systemd seems to violate too
many Unix principles and Upstart has problems with the canonical
copyright licence issues. I'd hate to see Linux get pulled apart between
Red Hat and Canonical, so it's important that Debian doesn't act
precipitously.
James
a. The decision *was* made by Debian developers, as it should be. Those
that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that use,
feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
others to do it for them.
b. you're flogging a dead horse, the decision *has* been made.
c. it's the *default* init system for *Jessie*. Emphasis on default,
Debian's commitment to choice remains unaltered.

In a futile effort to forestall pointless and unproductive "opinions"
and the debatable 'right' of people to hold and express them.

NOTES: I'm not commenting specifically on your post James, it's just a
point in the thread to inject my opinion in support of the decision by
Debian Technical. Apropos of little - interesting how many of the, um,
most passionate views are expressed by those that *don't* use Debian....
(have deep emotional commitment will travel?).
If it's relevant - I don't prefer systemd, but I do prefer the Debian way.

Kind regards.

<snipped>
James Allsopp
2014-02-12 11:48:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Scott,
Fair enough with this point; "a. The decision *was* made by Debian
developers, as it should be. Those
that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that use,
feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
others to do it for them."

Although I mentioned Gentoo, I've been using Debian for about 5 years now
and like it, basing all my new linux systems on it, I just mentioned gentoo
as contrast.

When you say Default, the difficulty of opting out plays a factor too. If
something is so difficult to opt out of, it then becomes Debian's de facto
system. It is a worry, perhaps there's some documentation of how to opt
out, so I can look at this?

Is there a document that summarises what developers thought the pros and
cons of each were? I've read LP's comments on systemd, but that hardly
falls into the balanced camp.

James


On 12 February 2014 11:36, Scott Ferguson <
Post by Scott Ferguson
Post by James Allsopp
Hi,
After reading through all the pros and cons, it seems that there isn't a
good replacement at all, so it would be better to wait. Admittedly I use
OpenRC on my gentoo machine and it's fine. Systemd seems to violate too
many Unix principles and Upstart has problems with the canonical
copyright licence issues. I'd hate to see Linux get pulled apart between
Red Hat and Canonical, so it's important that Debian doesn't act
precipitously.
James
a. The decision *was* made by Debian developers, as it should be. Those
that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that use,
feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
others to do it for them.
b. you're flogging a dead horse, the decision *has* been made.
c. it's the *default* init system for *Jessie*. Emphasis on default,
Debian's commitment to choice remains unaltered.
In a futile effort to forestall pointless and unproductive "opinions"
and the debatable 'right' of people to hold and express them.
NOTES: I'm not commenting specifically on your post James, it's just a
point in the thread to inject my opinion in support of the decision by
Debian Technical. Apropos of little - interesting how many of the, um,
most passionate views are expressed by those that *don't* use Debian....
(have deep emotional commitment will travel?).
If it's relevant - I don't prefer systemd, but I do prefer the Debian way.
Kind regards.
<snipped>
--
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
Chris Bannister
2014-02-12 12:04:28 UTC
Permalink
[James, please don top post on this mailing list.]
Post by James Allsopp
Is there a document that summarises what developers thought the pros and
cons of each were? I've read LP's comments on systemd, but that hardly
falls into the balanced camp.
A quick google search produces these:
https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd
https://wiki.debian.org/systemd
https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/upstart
https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/systemd
https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc
etc. etc. etc.

Also browse the debian-devel mailing list archives for an exhaustive
"discussion" on the issues.
--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
Scott Ferguson
2014-02-12 12:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Allsopp
Hi Scott,
Fair enough with this point; "a. The decision *was* made by Debian
developers, as it should be. Those
that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that use,
feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
others to do it for them."
Although I mentioned Gentoo, I've been using Debian for about 5 years
now and like it, basing all my new linux systems on it, I just mentioned
gentoo as contrast.
Contrast fine. Choice good. The sky is not falling, Linux (not the
kernel) will continue to change, and as sure as Mate, there will
continue to be distro/respins to scratch itches.
Post by James Allsopp
When you say Default, the difficulty of opting out plays a factor too.
So? - balance that against the difficulty of opting in to the various
alternatives prior. The tail should not wag the dog - distros should
continue to be shaped by developers - only the popularity (for what it's
worth) should be determined by users (which is what I am).
I haven't made the commitment to become a Debian developer, but I
appreciate that being one requires a default init system to develop around.
Post by James Allsopp
If something is so difficult to opt out of, *if* then becomes Debian's de
facto system. It is a worry, perhaps there's some documentation of how
to opt out, so I can look at this?
(emphasis and guessed spelling correction mine). Sorry, I don't have a
link I can point you at - though I'm certain there'll be plenty soon.
Post by James Allsopp
Is there a document that summarises what developers thought the pros and
cons of each were?
I follow the developers mailing list, there's a good summary on
planet.debian.org (unfortunately my ISP has taken to hijacking that URL
today).
Post by James Allsopp
I've read LP's comments on systemd, but that hardly
falls into the balanced camp.
Or even relevant (LP's comments), given their luxury of sitting in the
observers pavilion?

Kind regards.

P.S. I do appreciate your response, but please don't top post (mutter,
grouch, mutter)
Post by James Allsopp
James
On 12 February 2014 11:36, Scott Ferguson
Post by James Allsopp
Hi,
After reading through all the pros and cons, it seems that there
isn't a
Post by James Allsopp
good replacement at all, so it would be better to wait. Admittedly
I use
Post by James Allsopp
OpenRC on my gentoo machine and it's fine. Systemd seems to
violate too
Post by James Allsopp
many Unix principles and Upstart has problems with the canonical
copyright licence issues. I'd hate to see Linux get pulled apart
between
Post by James Allsopp
Red Hat and Canonical, so it's important that Debian doesn't act
precipitously.
James
a. The decision *was* made by Debian developers, as it should be. Those
that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that use,
feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
others to do it for them.
b. you're flogging a dead horse, the decision *has* been made.
c. it's the *default* init system for *Jessie*. Emphasis on default,
Debian's commitment to choice remains unaltered.
In a futile effort to forestall pointless and unproductive "opinions"
and the debatable 'right' of people to hold and express them.
NOTES: I'm not commenting specifically on your post James, it's just a
point in the thread to inject my opinion in support of the decision by
Debian Technical. Apropos of little - interesting how many of the, um,
most passionate views are expressed by those that *don't* use Debian....
(have deep emotional commitment will travel?).
If it's relevant - I don't prefer systemd, but I do prefer the Debian way.
Kind regards.
<snipped>
Lisi Reisz
2014-02-13 11:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Ferguson
(emphasis and guessed spelling correction mine).
Scott - the original strikes me as being correct, and
oyur "correction" strikes me as being wrong.

Lisi
b***@neutralite.org
2014-02-12 15:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Allsopp
Hi Scott,
Fair enough with this point; "a. The decision *was* made by Debian
developers, as it should be. Those
that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that use,
feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
others to do it for them."
Although I mentioned Gentoo, I've been using Debian for about 5 years
now and like it, basing all my new linux systems on it, I just
mentioned gentoo as contrast.
When you say Default, the difficulty of opting out plays a factor
too. If something is so difficult to opt out of, it then becomes
Debian's de facto system. It is a worry, perhaps there's some
documentation of how to opt out, so I can look at this?
Do not worry about it. As a joke says on the internet, "Ubuntu" is an
African word meaning "I can't configure Debian".

If I have no doubt that this is a joke and that there are Ubuntu power
users, I think that Debian have a quite great percentage of tinkerers
which will be able to produce lot of documents to replace an init system
by another one. In fact, there already have some, which allowed me to
give a try to systemd monthes ago.
Plus, there still are the other kernels that Debian supports. Hurd is
still unofficial ( I'm not sure about that ), but kFreeBSD is, and
systemd is not compatible with it, so there will be a not too hard way
to revert to sysVinit.
Ralf Mardorf
2014-02-12 15:47:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@neutralite.org
I think that Debian have a quite great percentage of tinkerers
which will be able to produce lot of documents to replace an init system
by another one. In fact, there already have some, which allowed me to
give a try to systemd monthes ago.
Plus, there still are the other kernels that Debian supports. Hurd is
still unofficial ( I'm not sure about that ), but kFreeBSD is, and
systemd is not compatible with it, so there will be a not too hard way
to revert to sysVinit.
You are aware that once systemd is the default, then unlikely udev still
will be a separated package? It's not that easy to provide a distro with
several init systems. Arch did provide init scripts and systemd for a
while, but after some time init scripts was dropped.

Good luck with kFreeBSD. I've got a FreeBSD install, but installing
Debian's BSD did fail for me and even if it won't fail for you, don't
expect that BSD is a replacement for Linux. Ok, your thought is, that
because there's a BSD port, it still would be easy to reconfigure Debian
Linux to use init scripts, but I suspect you're mistaken.

I'm against systemd and pro init scripts, but I guess we have to live
with systemd in the future, resp. I'm already doing it, not for my
Debian, but for my more often used Arch Linux, since a long time ago.

There's nothing to discuss anymore, since the decision was made by the
Debian developers and IMO to hope that init scripts will survive for
those who are willing to reconfigure their Debian is an utopian dream.
If we like it or dislike it, sysvinit / init scripts are dead.
Gian Uberto Lauri
2014-02-12 15:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralf Mardorf
If we like it or dislike it, sysvinit / init scripts are dead.
Sounds like a Bad News(TM).
--
/\ ___ Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____ African word
//--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamico meaning "I can
\/ coltivatore diretto di software not install
già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso... Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO
y***@marupa.net
2014-02-12 16:04:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gian Uberto Lauri
Post by Ralf Mardorf
If we like it or dislike it, sysvinit / init scripts are dead.
Sounds like a Bad News(TM).
Why bad news? SysV init's been dead through most of the rest of *nix-land
(Even most certified Unixen don't use it anymore.). Why do we need to stick
with it? And initscripts are a slow and overcomplicated way to start up a
system (With more than its share of technical problems.). It's much better to
boot up via configuration, not scripting: Easier to maintain, much faster, and
much more flexible.

Not to mention it's a modern feature Linux could make good use of. SysV's been
a dead-end option for a long time now, it just took this long for viable
alternatives to mature for Linux.

Conrad
Scott Ferguson
2014-02-12 11:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Allsopp
Hi,
After reading through all the pros and cons, it seems that there isn't a
good replacement at all, so it would be better to wait. Admittedly I use
OpenRC on my gentoo machine and it's fine. Systemd seems to violate too
many Unix principles and Upstart has problems with the canonical
copyright licence issues. I'd hate to see Linux get pulled apart between
Red Hat and Canonical, so it's important that Debian doesn't act
precipitously.
James
In a futile effort to forestall pointless and unproductive "opinions"
and the debatable 'right' of, people/users of the work of others, to
hold and "express" them (pissing up a rope?).

A. The decision *was* made by Debian developers, as it should be. Those
that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that use,
feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
others to do it for them.
B. Those that object - you're flogging a dead horse, the decision *has*
been made. Rail elsewhere, take your ball and go home, move on etc.
C. It's the *default* init system for *Jessie*. Emphasis on default,
Debian's commitment to choice remains unaltered.

NOTES: I'm not commenting specifically on your post James, it's just an
arbitrary point in the thread to inject *my* opinion in support of the
decision by Debian Technical.
Apropos of little - interesting how many of the, um, most passionate
views are expressed by those that *don't* use Debian.... (have deep
emotional commitment will travel?).
If it's relevant - I don't prefer systemd, but I do prefer and support
the Debian way.

Kind regards.

<snipped>
Sven Joachim
2014-02-12 17:13:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bannister
I tried systemd - booted really fast, but it didn't honor any console
font settings I had. I groaned and reverted back realising, after seeing
quite a bit of discussion, that there was another setup to learn! In
this case the learning would be mandatory if I wanted to get my console
back the way I had it!
I'm surprised to read this, since systemd's vconsole-setup has been
disabled in the Debian package for three years. Does the console-setup
package not work for you under systemd?

Cheers,
Sven
Chris Bannister
2014-02-13 10:37:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Joachim
Post by Chris Bannister
I tried systemd - booted really fast, but it didn't honor any console
font settings I had. I groaned and reverted back realising, after seeing
quite a bit of discussion, that there was another setup to learn! In
this case the learning would be mandatory if I wanted to get my console
back the way I had it!
I'm surprised to read this, since systemd's vconsole-setup has been
disabled in the Debian package for three years. Does the console-setup
package not work for you under systemd?
I just did the "init=/lib/systemd/systemd" on the linux command line as
a oncer and noticed.

Now:
***@tal:~# ls -al /lib/systemd/
total 260
drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 4096 Jan 20 23:12 .
drwxr-xr-x 15 root root 12288 Dec 28 20:52 ..
drwxr-xr-x 11 root root 28672 Jan 26 22:08 system
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 210380 Jan 1 07:24 systemd-udevd
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Dec 28 20:59 system-sleep

So I must have uninstalled something, I'll try it again later, at
some stage, but I remember googling wondering how the console font
was configured, but then thought what else do I have worry about (access
to log info, etc) and decided that I'll look into it again later. :)

Does anyone knows who sells round tuits?
--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
Scott Ferguson
2014-02-13 10:47:36 UTC
Permalink
<snipped>
Post by Chris Bannister
Does anyone knows who sells round tuits?
Yes. (disclaimer, I get a commission from them) - but my advice it to
buy the square ones and belt them round with a hammer. Much cheaper.

Kind regards
Paul Cartwright
2014-02-13 11:42:38 UTC
Permalink
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/13/2014 05:37 AM, Chris Bannister
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:***@tal" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I just did the "init=/lib/systemd/systemd" on the linux command line as
a oncer and noticed.

Now:
***@tal:~# ls -al <i class="moz-txt-slash"><span class="moz-txt-tag">/</span>lib/systemd<span class="moz-txt-tag">/</span></i>
total 260
drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 4096 Jan 20 23:12 .
drwxr-xr-x 15 root root 12288 Dec 28 20:52 ..
drwxr-xr-x 11 root root 28672 Jan 26 22:08 system
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 210380 Jan 1 07:24 systemd-udevd
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Dec 28 20:59 system-sleep</pre>
</blockquote>
is that all you have ?? I just upgraded to jessie earlier this week,
on my amd_64 system. Here is what I got:<br>
<br>
# ls -al /lib/systemd/<br>
total 2792<br>
drwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 6 root root&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4096 Feb&nbsp; 9 15:06 .<br>
drwxr-xr-x 19 root root&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4096 Feb&nbsp; 9 16:04 ..<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 546 Dec 31 12:54 debian-fixup<br>
drwxr-xr-x 18 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 12288 Feb&nbsp; 9 20:00 system<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root 1027296 Dec 31 12:54 systemd<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 18304 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-ac-power<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 34768 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-activate<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 38936 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-binfmt<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 88400 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-bootchart<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 26576 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-cgroups-agent<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 51152 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-cryptsetup<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 38936 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-fsck<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 67768 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-hostnamed<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 34768 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-initctl<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp; 190488 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-journald<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 71720 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-localed<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp; 243736 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-logind<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 363 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-logind-launch<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 47192 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-modules-load<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 22408 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-multi-seat-x<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 30744 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-quotacheck<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 30672 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-random-seed<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 55336 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-readahead<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 30744 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-remount-fs<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 22480 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-reply-password<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 67696 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-shutdown<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 42960 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-shutdownd<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 59416 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-sleep<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 43032 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-sysctl<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 80008 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-timedated<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 18304 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-timestamp<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp; 198808 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-udevd<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 34768 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-update-utmp<br>
-rwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 1 root root&nbsp;&nbsp; 43032 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-user-sessions<br>
drwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 2 root root&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4096 Feb&nbsp; 9 15:06 system-generators<br>
drwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 2 root root&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4096 Dec 31 12:53 system-shutdown<br>
drwxr-xr-x&nbsp; 2 root root&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4096 Feb&nbsp; 9 15:56 system-sleep<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587</pre>
</body>
</html>
Ralf Mardorf
2014-02-13 12:00:52 UTC
Permalink
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 190488 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-journald
I at least would expect the f...ine journal. For Chris that much is
missing that I suspect he runs some kind of
transition-SysVinit-systemd-hybrid. This is something comparable to
brown sugar on a mari...nade sandwich given as a present now and later
the victim needs to pay for the brown sugar with lots of lifetime.
Chris Bannister
2014-02-13 12:25:48 UTC
Permalink
[Paul, please don't post in html]
Post by Chris Bannister
I just did the "init=/lib/systemd/systemd" on the linux command line as
a oncer and noticed.
You snipped what I noticed.
Post by Chris Bannister
total 260
drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 4096 Jan 20 23:12 .
drwxr-xr-x 15 root root 12288 Dec 28 20:52 ..
drwxr-xr-x 11 root root 28672 Jan 26 22:08 system
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 210380 Jan 1 07:24 systemd-udevd
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Dec 28 20:59 system-sleep
is that all you have ?? I just upgraded to jessie earlier this week, on
I said I deleted a package, remember.
Post by Chris Bannister
# ls -al /lib/systemd/
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1027296 Dec 31 12:54 systemd
a dpkg -S /lib/systemd/systemd

will show what package I deleted. The bits you snipped from my post
has changed the meaning slightly. :(
--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
l***@vcn.bc.ca
2014-02-13 05:14:02 UTC
Permalink
[latinfo, are you subscribed to this list? If so we could stop CC'ing
you]
No, i am not subscribed, but it is not a problem if you CC me. Thanks
Normally in Debian, users have a choice. It is why i am asking if some
things have changed in Debian.
Regarding to this nothing changed, you are free to become a packager and
to provide an alternative to systemd, by also maintaining all the
alternative packages, that might be needed, assumed there should be
conflicts for some packages, by your systemd alternative.
Obviously, you are one of regents of this Kingdom! Very smart Ralf, as
always!
On the one hand it has been stated that systemd is only going to be the
default init system and you are free to install which one you want
whereas OTOH¹ there are developers who state that it will be too much
work to package init scripts for every init system that Debian
"supports"
¹ Means "On The Other hand" could get confusing if it is taken to mean
"On The One hand" :)
Perfect, this is what i was in need to read!
Thanks so much Chris.
--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
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Tom H
2014-02-12 07:54:40 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Andrei POPESCU
Post by Andrei POPESCU
Let the flames begin...
Please no!

The -devel@ and -ctte@ lists already have some, most likely
non-Debian-using crazies, posting there so the d-u members who want to
"discuss" this should feel free to join the delirium there and
preserve this list for technical issues...
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