Discussion:
what's your favourite FLOSS?
(too old to reply)
Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
2008-11-13 12:18:26 UTC
Permalink
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
there's a couple of nice editions to last year's categories:

audio editor:

audio player:

cd-ripper:

desktop OR window manager:

DBMS:

development:

disc burner:

e-mail client:

file manager:

finance:

ftp client:

games:

image editor:

image viewer:

instant messenger:

mathematics:

misc utilities:

p2p:

package manager:

pdf-reader:

spreadsheet:

tag editor:

terminal emulator:

text editor:

video player:

web browser:

word-processor:

non-free:



SPECIAL CATEGORIES

anything unreleased and highly anticipated:

anything FLOSS deserving great honours (EG. Linux, GCC):

any organisation/community deserving great honours (EG. GNU, Debian):

any FLOSS developer deserving great honours (max 5 at most, unless you insist):
--
my place on the web:
floss-and-misc.blogspot.com
steve
2008-11-13 12:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
audio player:amarok
desktop OR window manager:gnome
disc burner:k3b
e-mail client:thunderbird
file manager:nautilus
ftp client:filezilla
games:sauerbraten
p2p:transmission/bittorrent
package manager:apt/synaptic
spreadsheet:Ooo
terminal emulator:terminal
text editor:gedit
video player:mplayer
web browser:firefox
word-processor:Ooo
SPECIAL CATEGORIES
--
Steve Reilly

http://reillyblog.com


"Any people anywhere, being inclined, and having the power, have the
right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new
one that suits them better." Abraham Lincoln 1848
machiner
2008-11-13 16:10:35 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

audio editor:

audio player: vlc

cd-ripper: sound-juicer

desktop OR window manager: Xfce4

DBMS:

development:

disc burner: Brasero

e-mail client: claws-mail

file manager:

finance:

ftp client: gftp

games: Nexuiz

image editor:

image viewer:

instant messenger: Pidgin

mathematics:

misc utilities: too many to list

p2p:

package manager: aptitude

pdf-reader: xpdf

spreadsheet:

tag editor:

terminal emulator: roxterm

text editor: nano, mousepad

video player: mplayer

web browser:

word-processor:

non-free: Opera
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
SPECIAL CATEGORIES
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:18:26 +0200
"Tshepang Lekhonkhobe" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
John Hasler
2008-11-13 16:37:15 UTC
Permalink
what's your favourite FLOSS?
I've been using some Johnson & Johnson "Reach" brand that the dentist gave
me recently, but I think that the "Equate" stuff from Walmart is just as
good.

I guess I don't have a favorite.
--
John Hasler
Hugo Vanwoerkom
2008-11-14 11:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hasler
what's your favourite FLOSS?
I've been using some Johnson & Johnson "Reach" brand that the dentist gave
me recently, but I think that the "Equate" stuff from Walmart is just as
good.
I guess I don't have a favorite.
I was afraid to ask if it means something else.
Favorite Loss Of Signal Software?

Hugo
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
2008-11-14 21:05:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugo Vanwoerkom
Post by John Hasler
what's your favourite FLOSS?
I've been using some Johnson & Johnson "Reach" brand that the dentist
gave me recently, but I think that the "Equate" stuff from Walmart is
just as good.
I was afraid to ask if it means something else.
Favorite Loss Of Signal Software?
Free (Libre) / Open-Source Software.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
***@volumehost.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.org/ \_/
François Cerbelle
2008-11-13 16:30:47 UTC
Permalink
audio player: rhythmbox
desktop OR window manager: LXDE
DBMS: mysql
development: gcc/g++/php/perl/bash
disc burner: mkisofs/wodim
e-mail client: mutt/icedove
file manager: PCMan / Thunar
finance: grisbi
ftp client: scp/ssh
image editor: TheGIMP/ImageMagick
image viewer: eog(Eye of Gnome), gthumb, gimageview
instant messenger: pidguin/irssi
misc utilities: jpilot
package manager: aptitude
pdf-reader: acroread (C.Marillat's Debian Multimedia repo)
spreadsheet: OOo
terminal emulator: xfterm / screen
text editor: vim
video player: xfmedia
web browser: iceweasel
word-processor: OOo
non-free: acroread/sun-java6-plugin/flashplugin-nonfree/mplayer/mencoder
video editor: cinelerra/manDVD/dvd-slideshow
monitoring: gkrellm
volume manager: LVM2
disaster recovery: mondo
backup: rsync
boot loader: grub2 / splashy
SPECIAL CATEGORIES
anything FLOSS deserving great honours (EG. Linux, GCC): linux/gcc
debian
any FLOSS developer deserving great honours (max 5 at most, unless you
insist): every OSS developper for their work
You should use the debian popcon site : http://popcon.debian.org/

Fanfan
--
http://www.cerbelle.net - http://www.afdm-idf.org
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-***@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact ***@lists.debian.org
Thierry Chatelet
2008-11-13 16:34:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
http://www.april.org/

It is an association that try to promote Floss to the europeen political
people. Sorry it's in french right now.
Kelly Clowers
2008-11-13 17:06:09 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 4:18 AM, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
It's that time of year again? Time is just flying. I think I will have
to wait until Sunday to fill this all out, though.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers
Teemu Likonen
2008-11-13 17:00:57 UTC
Permalink
| Category | |
|-----------------------------------+-------------------------|
| audio player | Amarok |
| desktop OR window manager | KDE |
| development | Emacs |
| disc burner | K3B |
| e-mail client | Emacs (M-x gnus) |
| file manager | Konqueror |
| ftp client | Konqueror |
| mathematics | Emacs (M-x calc) |
| misc utilities | Git (version control) |
| package manager | DPKG/APT |
| pdf-reader | Kpdf |
| spreadsheet | Emacs (M-x orgtbl-mode) |
| terminal emulator | XTerm |
| text editor | Emacs |
| video player | MPlayer |
| web browser | Iceweasel (Firefox) |
| word-processor | OpenOffice.org |
|-----------------------------------+-------------------------|
| any organisation/community
| deserving great honours | Debian |
|-----------------------------------+-------------------------|
| FLOSS developer deserving honours | Richard M. Stallman |
| | Linus Torvals |
|-----------------------------------+-------------------------|
Teemu Likonen
2008-11-13 17:04:25 UTC
Permalink
Fixed version:


| Category | |
|-------------------------------+-------------------------|
| audio player | Amarok |
| desktop OR window manager | KDE |
| development | Emacs |
| disc burner | K3B |
| e-mail client | Emacs (M-x gnus) |
| file manager | Konqueror |
| ftp client | Konqueror |
| mathematics | Emacs (M-x calc) |
| misc utilities | Git (version control) |
| package manager | DPKG/APT |
| pdf-reader | Kpdf |
| spreadsheet | Emacs (M-x orgtbl-mode) |
| terminal emulator | XTerm |
| text editor | Emacs |
| video player | MPlayer |
| web browser | Iceweasel (Firefox) |
| word-processor | OpenOffice.org |
|-------------------------------+-------------------------|
| any organisation/community | Debian |
| deserving great honours | |
|-------------------------------+-------------------------|
| any FLOSS developer deserving | Richard M. Stallman |
| great honours | Linus Torvals |
|-------------------------------+-------------------------|
Juan Carlos Avila
2008-11-13 17:37:55 UTC
Permalink
| Category | |
|-------------------------------+-------------------------|
| audio player | |
| desktop OR window manager | gnome/fluxbox |
| development | |
| disc burner | xcdroast |
| e-mail client | mutt |
| file manager | mc |
| ftp client | |
| mathematics | xcalc |
| misc utilities | |
| package manager | apt |
| pdf-reader | xpdf |
| spreadsheet | gnumeric |
| terminal emulator | mxrvt |
| text editor | Emacs |
| video player | mplayer |
| web browser | iceweasel/links2 |
| word-processor | abiword |
|-------------------------------+-------------------------|
Dean Sutherland
2008-11-14 08:07:04 UTC
Permalink
| Category | |
|-------------------------------+-------------------------|
| audio player | mpd/sonata |
| desktop OR window manager | gnome/xfce |
| development | Emacs |
| disc burner | Brasero |
| e-mail client | claws-mail |
| file manager | nautilus |
| ftp client | filezilla/lftp |
| mathematics | gcalctool |
| misc utilities | screen/wget |
| package manager | DPKG/APT |
| pdf-reader | |
| spreadsheet | Gnumeric |
| terminal emulator | rxvt/gnome-term |
| text editor | Emacs/gedit/nano |
| video player | VLC/MPlayer |
| web browser | Iceweasel (Firefox) |
| word-processor | OpenOffice.org |
|-------------------------------+-------------------------|
| any organisation/community | Debian |
| deserving great honours | |
|-------------------------------+-------------------------|
| any FLOSS developer deserving | Richard M. Stallman |
| great honours | Linus Torvalds |
| | Guido van Rossum |
|-------------------------------+-------------------------|
Anthony Campbell
2008-11-13 18:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
desktop OR window manager: icewm
ftp client: sitecopy
games: crafty
spreadsheet: gnumeric
text editor: vim
document-processor: LyX
any FLOSS developer deserving great honours (max 5 at most, unless you insist): Bram Moolenaar
--
Anthony Campbell - ***@acampbell.org.uk
Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux
http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews,
and sceptical articles)
Chris Bannister
2008-11-17 07:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Campbell
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
desktop OR window manager: icewm
ftp client: sitecopy
games: crafty
Chess ... a game? ... :(
--
Chris.
======
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god
than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other
possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
-- Stephen F Roberts
Anthony Campbell
2008-11-17 09:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bannister
Post by Anthony Campbell
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
desktop OR window manager: icewm
ftp client: sitecopy
games: crafty
Chess ... a game? ... :(
--
Chris.
======
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god
than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other
possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
The only computer game I ever play. I just wish I could win against
Crafty one day.

Anthony
--
Anthony Campbell - ***@acampbell.org.uk
Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux
http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews,
and sceptical articles)
Dotan Cohen
2008-11-13 20:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
audio player: Amarok
desktop OR window manager: KDE
development: VIM
disc burner: K3B
e-mail client: Kmail / Thunderbird
file manager: Konqueror
ftp client: Konqueror
image editor: Gimp
image viewer: Eye of Gnome
instant messenger: Kopete
mathematics: Maxima
misc utilities: Zim! Zim!
package manager: apt
pdf-reader: Okular
spreadsheet: OOo
terminal emulator: Konsole
text editor: Kate
video player: VLC
web browser: Firefox
word-processor: OOo
SPECIAL CATEGORIES
anything FLOSS deserving great honours (EG. Linux, GCC): Zim! This personal wiki is making my life more organized than it has ever been.
any organisation/community deserving great honours (EG. GNU, Debian): KDE, Ubuntu
any FLOSS developer deserving great honours (max 5 at most, unless you insist): Aaron Siego, Jaap Karssenberg, Linus Torvalds.
--
floss-and-misc.blogspot.com
--
--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

ä
Lachlan
2008-11-13 21:18:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
audio editor: audacity
audio player: mesk
cd-ripper: sound-juicer
desktop OR window manager: gnome, compiz
DBMS: -
development: moodevelop is the only IDE i've used
disc burner: gnomebaker
e-mail client: evolution
file manager: nautilus
finance: -
ftp client: gftp
games: freeciv
image editor: gimp
image viewer: gthumb
instant messenger: emesene
mathematics: gnome calculator
misc utilities: jinzora
p2p: deluge
package manager: synaptic/aptitude
pdf-reader: document viewer
spreadsheet: open office
tag editor: tagtool
terminal emulator: gnome terminal
text editor: gedit
video player: totem/totem-xine
web browser: epiphany
word-processor: open office
non-free: opera
SPECIAL CATEGORIES
anything unreleased and highly anticipated: not anything right now
anything FLOSS deserving great honours (EG. Linux, GCC): i love tag tool, mesk, and most of the default gnome apps.
Celejar
2008-11-14 05:25:43 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:18:26 +0200
mplayer
Xfce / Xfwm
Bluefish / Gvim / Vim
Sylpheed
mc
ncftp
Wesnoth / Nethack
Gimp / Imagemagick
feh
aptitude
evince
[Xfce] Terminal
vim
[G]mplayer
Iceweasel
Abiword / oowriter
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
SPECIAL CATEGORIES
Debian, OpenWrt, Linux, ssh, Sylpheed, b43, ath5k, perl

Celejar
--
mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email
ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator
Chris Bannister
2008-11-17 07:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by machiner
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:18:26 +0200
[..]
Post by machiner
[G]mplayer
You know gmplayer is broken, right? Compare 'top' with both for the same
movie. Note the CPU usage.
--
Chris.
======
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god
than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other
possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
-- Stephen F Roberts
Celejar
2008-11-17 07:45:39 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:20:02 +1300
Post by Chris Bannister
Post by machiner
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:18:26 +0200
[..]
Post by machiner
[G]mplayer
You know gmplayer is broken, right? Compare 'top' with both for the same
movie. Note the CPU usage.
On a couple of movies I had lying around, I saw several percent higher
CPU utilization for gmplayer. i.e. something like 9 - 11% for mplayer,
and 12 - 14% for gmplayer. I suppose that that would be a reason to
use mplayer, assuming that all the controls are the same.
Post by Chris Bannister
Chris.
Celejar
--
mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email
ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator
Juha Tuuna
2008-11-14 08:03:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
audio editor: audacity

audio player: xmms

cd-ripper: kaudiocreator

desktop OR window manager: kde

DBMS: mysql

development: lazarus, quanta+

disc burner: k3b

e-mail client: icedove/thunderbird, mutt

file manager: zsh, star commander in some rare cases

finance:

ftp client: whatever makes the job done (ftp, browser, mc, etc.)

games: nethack, frozen bubble, freedroid

image editor: gimp

image viewer: display/image magick

instant messenger: kopete

mathematics:

misc utilities: 7zip

p2p: bittornado

package manager: aptitude

pdf-reader: kpdf

spreadsheet: gnumeric

tag editor:

terminal emulator: konsole

text editor: nano

video player: xine

web browser: iceweasel/firefox

word-processor: open office writer

anything unreleased and highly anticipated: Debian Lenny (as stable)

anything FLOSS deserving great honours (EG. Linux, GCC): cc65

any organisation/community deserving great honours (EG. GNU, Debian): gnu,
debian, apache, mysql, postgresql, vice

any FLOSS developer deserving great honours (max 5 at most, unless you
insist): Joe Forster/STA, the author of Star Commander, Igor Pavlov, the
author of 7-Zip
--
Juha Tuuna
tôba
2008-11-14 08:43:43 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:18:26 +0200
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
audio player:

cd-ripper: grip

desktop OR window manager: ion3

DBMS: mysql

development: emacs

disc burner: cdrecord, k3b

e-mail client: claws-mail

file manager: ls, thunar

finance:

ftp client: ftp, gftp-text

games: ksirtet when I used yet kde

image editor: gimp

image viewer: display

instant messenger: psi/skype

mathematics:

misc utilities:

p2p: deluge

package manager: apt, aptitude, dpkg

pdf-reader: epdfview

spreadsheet: gnumeric

tag editor:

terminal emulator: urxvt

text editor: emacs

video player: mplayer

web browser: firefox

word-processor: abiword or openoffice.org

non-free:



SPECIAL CATEGORIES

anything unreleased and highly anticipated:

anything FLOSS deserving great honours (EG. Linux, GCC): Postfix

any organisation/community deserving great honours (EG. GNU, Debian):
Debian

any FLOSS developer deserving great honours (max 5 at most, unless
you insist): Wietse Venema
Manu Hack
2008-11-14 08:56:26 UTC
Permalink
audio player: xmms2, amarok
desktop OR window manager: openbox, xfce4
DBMS: mysql
development: g++, python
disc burner: k3b
e-mail client: mutt
file manager: thunar
finance: (there is not floss named "bailout" unfortunately AFAIK)
ftp client: lftp
games: xmoto
image editor: gimp
image viewer: qiv
instant messenger: finch
mathematics: R, python, maxima
misc utilities: screen, dvtm, remind, wyrd
p2p: amule, deluge
package manager: apt
pdf-reader: xpdf, kpdf
spreadsheet: oocalc
terminal emulator: urxvt
text editor: vim
video player: mplayer
web browser: iceweasel
word-processor: latex
Bob Cox
2008-11-14 09:27:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
audio editor: audacity
audio player: kaffeine
desktop OR window manager: kde
disc burner: k3b
e-mail client: mutt
file manager: ls, konqueror
ftp client: lftp
image editor: showfoto, gimp
image viewer: showfoto, gpicview
package manager: aptitude
pdf-reader: kpdf
spreadsheet: OpenOffice
terminal emulator: konsole
text editor: vim, kwrite
video player: kaffeine
video editor: avidemux

video (other) : devede, projectx, mplex
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
web browser: iceweasel, opera
word-processor: OpenOffice
SPECIAL CATEGORIES
Martin Michlmayr, Rod Whitby, Joey Hess and all involved with
NSLU2/ARM/ARMEL.
--
Bob Cox. Stoke Gifford, near Bristol, UK.
Debian on the NSLU2: http://bobcox.com/slug/
Registered user #445000 with the Linux Counter - http://counter.li.org/
ghe
2008-11-14 12:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
Here's a template where you can fill in your favourites; feel free to
add missing categories. Please don't add what you haven't really used
(like I used to). More than piece can be given per category. Oh, and
audio editor: audacity, rezound
cd-ripper: grip
desktop OR window manager: gnome, xfce4
development: eclipse, scite, gcc
disc burner: cdrecord
e-mail client: icedove
finance: kmymoney2, gnucash
ftp client: ftp, sftp
games: freecell
image editor: gimp
image viewer: eog, gwenview
misc utilities: nmap, nagios, amanda, openssh, mdadm, tripwire
package manager: the *apt* collection
pdf-reader: evince
spreadsheet: gnumeric
terminal emulator: gterm
text editor: vim, scite
web browser: iceweasel, lynx
word-processor: OpenOffice
non-free: lame
SPECIAL CATEGORIES
lenny
perl
Debian, openBSD, Sun, apache, and the grand-daddy: GNU
Bram Molinar, Richard Stallman, Theo de Raadt, Larry Wall
particularly hated; massive nuisance causing data loss and grief:

UDEV!!! (not the idea; the implementation)


- --
Glenn English
***@slsware.com
Florian Kulzer
2008-11-14 22:08:04 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 05:01:26 -0700, ghe wrote:

[...]
Post by ghe
UDEV!!! (not the idea; the implementation)
How does udev cause data loss?
--
Regards, | http://users.icfo.es/Florian.Kulzer
Florian |
ghe
2008-11-15 01:42:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Florian Kulzer
[...]
Post by ghe
UDEV!!! (not the idea; the implementation)
How does udev cause data loss?
I was working on a system where sda is the system disk, and sdb was to
get a new partition map; powered down for something; connected an
external USB disk; rebooted; partitioned sdb...

The names of internal disks change without notice. This, IMHO, is an
extremely lame idea. I know better now, but it was an expensive lesson.

- --
Glenn English
***@slsware.com
Ron Johnson
2008-11-15 02:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by ghe
Post by Florian Kulzer
[...]
Post by ghe
UDEV!!! (not the idea; the implementation)
How does udev cause data loss?
I was working on a system where sda is the system disk, and sdb was to
get a new partition map; powered down for something; connected an
external USB disk; rebooted; partitioned sdb...
The names of internal disks change without notice. This, IMHO, is an
extremely lame idea. I know better now, but it was an expensive lesson.
Measure twice, cut once. IOW, look before you leap.
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

If you don't agree with me, you are worse than Hitler!!!
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
2008-11-15 02:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by ghe
The names of internal disks change without notice. This, IMHO, is an
extremely lame idea. I know better now, but it was an expensive lesson.
That could happen with devfs, or static device nodes, too. I suppose it
was rarer, but then device scanning was non-asynchronous then. Udev
finally gives us a way to attach a name to the device vs. depending on
quirks of the device scanning code to stay the same.

Udev didn't cause the data loss. fdisk did!
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
***@volumehost.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.org/ \_/
Nate Bargmann
2008-11-15 13:05:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
Post by ghe
The names of internal disks change without notice. This, IMHO, is an
extremely lame idea. I know better now, but it was an expensive lesson.
That could happen with devfs, or static device nodes, too. I suppose it
was rarer, but then device scanning was non-asynchronous then. Udev
finally gives us a way to attach a name to the device vs. depending on
quirks of the device scanning code to stay the same.
Udev didn't cause the data loss. fdisk did!
If one wasn't careful, such a data loss could happen in the DOS days
(not sure about Win32). IIRC, consider a drive formatted as two
partitions, C: and D: where C: is a primary partition and D: was an
extended DOS (logical) partition. Add a new hard drive to the mix and
fdisk it for two partitions. One could be forgiven for thinking the
original drive would remain C: and D: and the new drive might be E: and
F:, however, one would be wrong.

Assuming IDE drives on the same cable (Master/Slave), the primary
partition of the Master was C:, as expected, the primary of the Slave
was D:, the extended partition of the Master was E: and the extended
partition of the Slave was F:. In short, the system would assign all
the primary partitions drive letters in physical order and then all of
the extended partitions on the first drive followed by all the extended
partitions on the second drive and so on. That required some
explanation when a larger drive was added to a system prior to
FAT32/NTFS.

I thought I'd forgotten that arcane knowledge/experience.

- Nate >>
--
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html
Florian Kulzer
2008-11-15 14:07:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by ghe
Post by Florian Kulzer
[...]
Post by ghe
UDEV!!! (not the idea; the implementation)
How does udev cause data loss?
I was working on a system where sda is the system disk, and sdb was to
get a new partition map; powered down for something; connected an
external USB disk; rebooted; partitioned sdb...
The names of internal disks change without notice. This, IMHO, is an
extremely lame idea. I know better now, but it was an expensive lesson.
If that is your only example, then you should change your vote to:

| particularly hated; massive nuisance causing data loss and grief:
| the modern Linux kernel!!! (asynchronous device discovery)

Here is a simple test to demonstrate that udev takes over the name that
the kernel chooses:

$ udevadm test $(udevadm info --query=path --name /dev/sda) | grep get_name
udev_rules_get_name: add symlink 'disk/by-path/pci-0000:00:1f.2-scsi-0:0:0:0'
udev_rules_get_name: no node name set, will use kernel name 'sda'

(This example is for Lenny and Sid, on Etch you have to replace "udevadm
test" with "udevtest" and "udevadm info" with "udevinfo".)
--
Regards, | http://users.icfo.es/Florian.Kulzer
Florian |
ghe
2008-11-15 17:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Florian Kulzer
| the modern Linux kernel!!! (asynchronous device discovery)
Here is a simple test to demonstrate that udev takes over the name that
$ udevadm test $(udevadm info --query=path --name /dev/sda) | grep get_name
udev_rules_get_name: add symlink 'disk/by-path/pci-0000:00:1f.2-scsi-0:0:0:0'
udev_rules_get_name: no node name set, will use kernel name 'sda'
Good point, well taken; and thank you, Florian. I love it when I'm no
longer believing something that isn't true. Therefore, I wish to retract
a number of my UDEV rants over the past few years :-)

And I'll change my whinage to something about the scan order in the
kernel. I know something had do be done to deal with changing times, and
asynchronous discovery is way cool, but stuff inside the box oughta come
first. And the names should stay put after the install, not just after
the boot (the installer could create some UDEV rules??). It'd also be
nice if the names were predictable, and maybe even had some mnemonic value.

I don't think this is too much to ask...

At the time of my misadventure, I was still expecting sda to be the
lowest ID on the lowest SCSI bus -- there were no SATAs at the time, not
around here anyway. I use UUIDs for boot and fstab now and and never
rely on the /dev block device names to mean much of anything (except the
ones I set myself in 10-local.rules using vendor and model -- haven't
seen a disk drive serial number in udevinfo yet).

I still claim, though, that the floating /dev node names has broken, or
at least caused major PITA with, an awful lot of CL utilities and shell
scripts.

mdadm, I noticed yesterday, seems to be able to figure things out and
build its RAID arrays from the correct disks, even when the /dev names
are have changed since the arrays were defined. Bears looking into -- I
suspect UUIDs, but one mustn't jump to conclusions :-)

- --
Glenn English
***@slsware.com
martin f krafft
2008-11-15 17:52:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by ghe
mdadm, I noticed yesterday, seems to be able to figure things out
and build its RAID arrays from the correct disks, even when the
/dev names are have changed since the arrays were defined. Bears
looking into -- I suspect UUIDs, but one mustn't jump to
conclusions :-)
mdadm does work which udev could/should be doing. I am not too much
of a udev friend, and we must not depend on it, but prepare for
mdadm and udev to cooperate much closer post-lenny.

http://www.spinics.net/lists/raid/threads.html#20834

The way mdadm finds and assembles its components is by scanning
disks or partitions (DEVICE setting, or -c option) for superblocks.
The whole process is somewhat twisted and I hope we can rework it
one day.
--
.''`. martin f. krafft <***@debian.org>
: :' : proud Debian developer, author, administrator, and user
`. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck - http://debiansystem.info
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

"my father, a good man, told me:
'never lose your ignorance; you cannot replace it.'"
-- erich maria remarque
ghe
2008-11-15 18:42:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by martin f krafft
mdadm does work which udev could/should be doing. I am not too much
of a udev friend, and we must not depend on it
Right on, Bubba (I'm an old hippie from Texas :-)
Post by martin f krafft
but prepare for
mdadm and udev to cooperate much closer post-lenny.
http://www.spinics.net/lists/raid/threads.html#20834
Oh, dear! Sausage being made. This should be very interesting. I'll see
if I can get ready for the next new world order...
Post by martin f krafft
The way mdadm finds and assembles its components is by scanning
disks or partitions (DEVICE setting, or -c option) for superblocks.
The whole process is somewhat twisted and I hope we can rework it
one day.
Rats. Stays above the fray by ignoring the kernel and udev names
altogether -- wish I could do that. But thanks, madduck. I was hoping
you were around and would explain this.

mdadm creates lovely /dev nodes, BTW, IMHO...

- --
Glenn English
***@slsware.com
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
2008-11-15 19:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by martin f krafft
Post by ghe
mdadm, I noticed yesterday, seems to be able to figure things out
and build its RAID arrays from the correct disks, even when the
/dev names are have changed since the arrays were defined. Bears
looking into -- I suspect UUIDs, but one mustn't jump to
conclusions :-)
I know that's how it finds my devices:
# definitions of existing MD arrays
ARRAY /dev/md0 level=raid1 num-devices=2 UUID=077c05cf:a4327216:e66ff801:2a27e10e
ARRAY /dev/md1 level=raid0 num-devices=2 UUID=545ff3bf:a0b1e945:cdc2686e:85a2cec5
Post by martin f krafft
mdadm does work which udev could/should be doing. I am not too much
of a udev friend, and we must not depend on it, but prepare for
mdadm and udev to cooperate much closer post-lenny.
Are mdadm's UUIDs not the same as udev's?
Post by martin f krafft
http://www.spinics.net/lists/raid/threads.html#20834
Didn't read it all right now. Perhaps later.
Post by martin f krafft
The way mdadm finds and assembles its components is by scanning
disks or partitions (DEVICE setting, or -c option) for superblocks.
The whole process is somewhat twisted and I hope we can rework it
one day.
That seems sane, not twisting at all, to me. Last I checked this is also
the way LVM works. Will lvm2 be getting a similar "fix"?
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
***@volumehost.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.org/ \_/
martin f krafft
2008-11-15 19:39:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
Are mdadm's UUIDs not the same as udev's?
mdadm in lenny has udev rules to create links under /dev/disks, if
that's what you mean. But the kernel does not (yet) generate udev
events when md arrays are added or removed.
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
That seems sane, not twisting at all, to me. Last I checked this
is also the way LVM works. Will lvm2 be getting a similar "fix"?
lvm2 is in much the same boat.

Take

mdadm --assemble --auto=yes /dev/md0 /dev/sd[abc]1

This creates the /dev/md0 device node and then uses ioctl()'s to
assemble the array behind it, using the components in the first
partition of the drives.

A more natural way would be to tell the kernel to assemble the
components via /sys, and then, once the device is ready, give it
a name (which could come from persistent data in the superblock),
and have something create the appropriate node under /dev.

But as said, mdadm will likely grow the second capability in
addition, not instead of the first.
--
.''`. martin f. krafft <***@debian.org>
: :' : proud Debian developer, author, administrator, and user
`. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck - http://debiansystem.info
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

because light travels faster than sound,
some people appear to be intelligent,
until you hear them speak.
lee
2008-11-15 18:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by ghe
At the time of my misadventure, I was still expecting sda to be the
lowest ID on the lowest SCSI bus -- there were no SATAs at the time, not
around here anyway.
That is what I would expect. Are you saying that there is no way to
tell which disk is which one from the device names?

If that is true, how does the user, how does the system know which
disk is which one? As user, I can eventually tell with fdisk -l and
looking at the info --- *if* the disks are all different. But how does
the system figure out if the device refered to in /etc/fstab is
actually the device that should be refered to?

It seems I need to read up on this. Is there a good document that
explains it?
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
2008-11-15 19:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by lee
Post by ghe
At the time of my misadventure, I was still expecting sda to be the
lowest ID on the lowest SCSI bus -- there were no SATAs at the time,
not around here anyway.
That is what I would expect. Are you saying that there is no way to
tell which disk is which one from the device names?
Depends. Stuff in /dev/disk/by-uuid has never lead me astray.
However /dev/sd* nodes are named in the order the device is detected by
the kernel. It's not like that label is written to the disk.

I believe that disks on a single SCSI bus are always detected in order by
increasing SCSI id. However, /dev/sd* also includes USB and SATA devices,
probably some others, too. Devices are now probed asynchronously ("in
parallel"; which makes the kernel boot faster), so the USB disk that you
left in the system might be assigned a name before your SCSI bus. Any of
your two SCSI buses and one SATA bus could be assigned name(s) first and
this could vary from boot to boot.
Post by lee
If that is true, how does the user, how does the system know which
disk is which one?
Well, the system assigns those names as it detects devices. It gets some
input from the user via their udev configuration.
Post by lee
As user, I can eventually tell with fdisk -l and
looking at the info --- *if* the disks are all different. But how does
the system figure out if the device refered to in /etc/fstab is
actually the device that should be refered to?
The system has no notion of "should be". The system uses the device name
you list in /etc/fstab. It's the administrator's responsibility to make
sure that's what should be referred to.

Personally, I like using UUID= syntax to refer to my devices
(/dev/disk/by-uuid doesn't list logical volumes), but it does make the
lines in /etc/fstab a bit long. The LABEL= syntax is also a good one.
Post by lee
It seems I need to read up on this. Is there a good document that
explains it?
You can start with man udev, then a quick google for "linux udev how-to",
but I don't really know a definitive document.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
***@volumehost.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.org/ \_/
lee
2008-11-15 19:41:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
Post by lee
Are you saying that there is no way to
tell which disk is which one from the device names?
Depends. Stuff in /dev/disk/by-uuid has never lead me astray.
However /dev/sd* nodes are named in the order the device is detected by
the kernel. It's not like that label is written to the disk.
Well, that means there is no way of telling which disk is which other
than uuid maybe. But who says which uuid is to be which partition?
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
I believe that disks on a single SCSI bus are always detected in order by
increasing SCSI id.
It depends. I've seen it the other way round, depending on controller
settings: Priority is usually low to high, but when you switch it to
high to low (in the controller BIOS), the disks are the other way
round (very confusing). Since it depends on the controller, there is
no way to tell: Every controller can do its own thing (and have a
priority like "middle to low, then middle to high", or whatever).
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
so the USB disk that you left in the system might be assigned a name
before your SCSI bus. Any of your two SCSI buses and one SATA bus
could be assigned name(s) first and this could vary from boot to
boot.
Hm. What's the priority of detecting USB devices? You could have
several disks on USB ...
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
Post by lee
If that is true, how does the user, how does the system know which
disk is which one?
Well, the system assigns those names as it detects devices. It gets some
input from the user via their udev configuration.
But I don't have an udev configuration, not one I made myself. I was
thinking udev is to make things working right automatically ...
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
The system has no notion of "should be". The system uses the device name
you list in /etc/fstab. It's the administrator's responsibility to make
sure that's what should be referred to.
How can he do that without a way of telling which device is which,
under whatever circumstances? And if that is so, why does the
installer write an /etc/fstab with device names in it? That would
appear as a sure way to eventually brake things if someone plugs in an
USB drive or unplugs it after installing. It might work on the first
and second and fifth reboot and suddenly stop working, leaving him
with an unbootable system and no clue what might have gone wrong.
ghe
2008-11-15 20:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by lee
Well, that means there is no way of telling which disk is which other
than uuid maybe. But who says which uuid is to be which partition?
The UUID is written on the disk when the partition is created. It's
supposed to be a universally unique identifier for that partition. To
the best of my knowledge, though, there's nothing to identify the disk
itself.
Post by lee
It depends. I've seen it the other way round, depending on controller
settings: Priority is usually low to high, but when you switch it to
high to low (in the controller BIOS), the disks are the other way
round (very confusing). Since it depends on the controller, there is
no way to tell: Every controller can do its own thing (and have a
priority like "middle to low, then middle to high", or whatever).
But you can control that, and once you figure the setting you like, it
won't change.
Post by lee
But I don't have an udev configuration, not one I made myself. I was
thinking udev is to make things working right automatically ...
It works great if your system uses one or two IDE disks. Pretty well for
all SCSIs or SATAs -- just be sure there's no USB stick plugged in.

On my servers, I want to use a small fast SCSI system disk and a RAID of
SATAs for data, and I want my system disk to repeatably be called
/dev/sda. Forget it...
Post by lee
How can he do that without a way of telling which device is which,
under whatever circumstances? And if that is so, why does the
installer write an /etc/fstab with device names in it? That would
appear as a sure way to eventually brake things if someone plugs in an
USB drive or unplugs it after installing. It might work on the first
and second and fifth reboot and suddenly stop working, leaving him
with an unbootable system and no clue what might have gone wrong.
You got it. Except that now you know what went wrong :-)

- --
Glenn English
***@slsware.com
Barclay, Daniel
2008-12-30 17:40:55 UTC
Permalink
ghe wrote:
...
Post by ghe
Post by lee
Well, that means there is no way of telling which disk is which other
than uuid maybe. But who says which uuid is to be which partition?
The UUID is written on the disk when the partition is created.
That's not right, is it? Isn't the UUID always of part of the file system?
(Partitioning can't write the UUID; it's only when you format the partition
that the UUID can be written.)

Daniel
--
(Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML "courtesy" of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]
ghe
2008-12-30 18:52:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barclay, Daniel
That's not right, is it? Isn't the UUID always of part of the file system?
(Partitioning can't write the UUID; it's only when you format the partition
that the UUID can be written.)
Hmmm. That's an excellent point, and I don't know whether it's mkfs or
fdisk that creates the UUID.

I'm suspecting you're right that it's mkfs, though, because a quick
google shows people asking about UUIDs on swap partitions (partitioned,
but no fs) -- and 'ls -lf /dev/disk/by-uuid' shows no UUID for the
partition my fstab uses for swap.

If that's correct, reformatting a partition will (can) invalidate data
in fstab and make your machine a real PITA at boot.

- --
Glenn English
***@slsware.com
Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
2009-01-02 11:55:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by ghe
Hmmm. That's an excellent point, and I don't know whether it's mkfs or
fdisk that creates the UUID.
mkfs. If you need UUID for block devices, use LVM or MD raid (you can
have a RAID1 with only one disk).

That said, devices often can be identified by (vendor,type,serial
number) and udev also generates such nodes.
Post by ghe
If that's correct, reformatting a partition will (can) invalidate data
in fstab and make your machine a real PITA at boot.
That is correct.
--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
2008-12-30 19:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barclay, Daniel
Isn't the UUID always of part of the file system?
Not on LVM logical volumes, for example. The 'lvcreate' command generates a
UUID and writes it to the volume group metadata extent (along with other
information about the new logical volume).
Post by Barclay, Daniel
Partitioning can't write the UUID.
It could, assuming there is space in the partition table for it. I'm pretty
sure GPT provides this. The DOS partition table format may not, but I've
fairly sure it could be compatibly extended to do so.

Looking at my /dev/disk/by-uuid directory, it does appear to be populated with
UUIDs from the filesystems, not from the LVs or partitions.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
***@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
2008-11-16 00:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by lee
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
so the USB disk that you left in the system might be assigned a name
before your SCSI bus. Any of your two SCSI buses and one SATA bus
could be assigned name(s) first and this could vary from boot to
boot.
Hm. What's the priority of detecting USB devices? You could have
several disks on USB ...
There's no priorities. The kernel assigns names to all the device it can
initially see, and if the kernel thinks there can be other devices to ask
all of them (at roughly the same time) to enumerate said devices. As it
gets responses, it assigns more names and sends out more probes, until it
can see no more devices. During this process it subscribes to and may
receive hotplug events, which cause more names to be assigned and possibly
more probes to be issued.
Post by lee
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
Post by lee
If that is true, how does the user, how does the system know which
disk is which one?
Well, the system assigns those names as it detects devices. It gets
some input from the user via their udev configuration.
But I don't have an udev configuration, not one I made myself. I was
thinking udev is to make things working right automatically ...
The default, core udev rule is to use the kernel's name for the device.
This is supplemented with rules under /etc/udev/rules.d, which debian's
udev package populates and the user can add files to.
Post by lee
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
The system has no notion of "should be". The system uses the device
name you list in /etc/fstab. It's the administrator's responsibility
to make sure that's what should be referred to.
How can he do that without a way of telling which device is which,
under whatever circumstances?
By communicating how they identify the device to the kernel via udev rules
and using the assigned name. Most devices could be identified by model #
and/or serial #, partitions get uuids when they are created, you can also
specify by the bus type and address. There are tools to have the kernel
enumerate all enumerate all the attributes of a device that it can
observe, and up to the user to since which of these they can also use to
identify the device.
Post by lee
And if that is so, why does the
installer write an /etc/fstab with device names in it?
It's old code, it works much of the time (even now), and editing udev rules
in the installer could be bad (you'd want to udevtrigger/udevsettle and
then have the installer rescan after adding a rule).

For debootstrap installs, you have to roll your own /etc/fstab.

ISTR an Ubuntu install (and Ubuntu's installer is, or at least was at this
time, based on d-i) that did write UUIDs to my /etc/fstab.
Post by lee
That would
appear as a sure way to eventually brake things if someone plugs in an
USB drive or unplugs it after installing. It might work on the first
and second and fifth reboot and suddenly stop working, leaving him
with an unbootable system and no clue what might have gone wrong.
Certainly possible. I would not be averse to d-i creating a udev rules
file, properly commented, and using the resulting names in /etc/fstab.
But, I don't know enough about d-i, nor do I really have the time to make
such a change.

Also, I could be very wrong, but I think udev is still optional in etch. I
think you could still use devfs.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
***@volumehost.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.org/ \_/
lee
2008-11-27 03:47:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by lee
It might work on the first
and second and fifth reboot and suddenly stop working, leaving him
with an unbootable system and no clue what might have gone wrong.
AFAICT recent versions of the installer uses UUID for fstab.
That would be much better. I'm probably going to run into trouble once
I get the cable to connect my SCSI disks since there is no way to tell
in which order disks will be detected :(

What do you do with entries like this in /dev/disk/by-uuid/:


lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 2008-11-25 10:13 3c8489c2-b7c8-413c-aa3d-5940a7e9ec00 -> ../../md0
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2008-11-25 10:13 450494c6-3adc-4180-8365-60b6bfe57ca3 -> ../../hda8
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 2008-11-25 10:13 562ca497-de85-4724-ae7d-9896ba42d753 -> ../../md1


Put the long number into /etc/fstab instead of /dev/md1? And what
happens when a disk is repartitioned?

And why don't all of the disks show up? md1 is made from partitions on
two SATA disks, /dev/sda2 and /dev/sdb2, but neither the disks
(/dev/sda, /dev/sdb), nor their partitions (three on each) show
up. Once I connect the SCSI disks, there will be three more
/dev/sdX--- are they going to show up? How do I prevent the system
from messing up the disks?
--
"Don't let them, daddy. Don't let the stars run down."
http://adin.dyndns.org/adin/TheLastQ.htm
ghe
2008-11-27 04:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by lee
Post by lee
It might work on the first
and second and fifth reboot and suddenly stop working, leaving him
with an unbootable system and no clue what might have gone wrong.
AFAICT recent versions of the installer uses UUID for fstab.
That would be much better. I'm probably going to run into trouble once
I get the cable to connect my SCSI disks since there is no way to tell
in which order disks will be detected :(
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 2008-11-25 10:13 3c8489c2-b7c8-413c-aa3d-5940a7e9ec00 -> ../../md0
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2008-11-25 10:13 450494c6-3adc-4180-8365-60b6bfe57ca3 -> ../../hda8
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 2008-11-25 10:13 562ca497-de85-4724-ae7d-9896ba42d753 -> ../../md1
Put the long number into /etc/fstab instead of /dev/md1? And what
happens when a disk is repartitioned?
And why don't all of the disks show up? md1 is made from partitions on
two SATA disks, /dev/sda2 and /dev/sdb2, but neither the disks
(/dev/sda, /dev/sdb), nor their partitions (three on each) show
up. Once I connect the SCSI disks, there will be three more
/dev/sdX--- are they going to show up? How do I prevent the system
from messing up the disks?
You can get udev to name things (pretty much) the way you'd like. I
wrote a 10-local.rules udev ruleset (with lots of notes to myself for
Post by lee
# These rules are very specific to a system containing a single SCSI system disk and a pair of SATAs in a RAID
# for data, like the servers at slsware.com. They are intended to be used in the initrd as the system boots.
# The only thing hardware specific is the "DRIVERS" key. It must match a DRIVERS line in
# 'udevinfo -a -p /sys/block/sd<n> | egrep DRIVERS'. It must be there, though -- it's how we tell the difference
# between SCSI and SATA drives.
# They force the SCSI to be sda, with SYMLINK sysDisk, always, and the SATAs to be sdr and sds, with SYMLINKS
# dataDiskA & B, depending on the order they show up at udev.
# There must be rules for all of them because, as this is being written, SATAs show up before SCSIs, and they
# tend to get sda. This is not good because the Debian installer uses the /dev name in fstab.
# Check these out with 'udevadm test /block/sd<n>'. When you're sure they work, 'update-initramfs -u' and reboot.
# we are only interested in add and change actions
ACTION!="add|change", GOTO="slsware_rules_end"
KERNEL!="sd*", GOTO="slsware_rules_end"
SUBSYSTEM=="block", ENV{SLSWARE_DISK_TYPE}="UNDEFINED"
SUBSYSTEM=="block", DRIVERS=="aic79xx", ENV{SLSWARE_DISK_TYPE}="SCSI"
SUBSYSTEM=="block", DRIVERS=="ata_piix", ENV{SLSWARE_DISK_TYPE}="SATA"
SUBSYSTEM=="block", DRIVERS=="usb", ENV{SLSWARE_DISK_TYPE}="USB"
# the SCSI systemDisk
ENV{SLSWARE_DISK_TYPE}=="SCSI", TEST!="sda%n", NAME="sda%n", SYMLINK+="sysDisk%n"
# the (identical) RAID data disks -- they have the same number of partitions, so this will work
# (if the first one had 3 and the other had 4, the other's #4 would be called sdb4 instead of sdc4...)
ENV{SLSWARE_DISK_TYPE}=="SATA", TEST!="/dev/sdr%n", NAME="sdr%n", SYMLINK+="raidDiskA%n", OPTIONS+="last_rule"
ENV{SLSWARE_DISK_TYPE}=="SATA", TEST=="/dev/sdr%n", NAME="sds%n", SYMLINK+="raidDiskB%n", OPTIONS+="last_rule"
# if USB rules aren't here, and one is connected at boot, udev and the kernel render the system un-bootable
# the (current) USB stick
ENV{SLSWARE_DISK_TYPE}=="USB", ATTRS{model}=="IntelligentStick", NAME="sdusbStick%n"
# Anything else USB
ENV{SLSWARE_DISK_TYPE}=="USB", NAME="sdusb%k%n", OPTIONS="last_rule"
# end of processing
LABEL="slsware_rules_end"
This sucks, but it works, and things are at least somewhat stable and
predictable. There's a way to get the serial numbers, to be able to tell
the SATAs apart, but I couldn't get it to work. mdadm builds its arrays
using UUIDs, I think, so it doesn't matter much, at least for my 2
element RAID1...

I install with only the SCSI in the machine, activate a SATA and get the
DRIVERS key from udevinfo, edit the rules, rebuild initramfs, reboot,
and build the RAID array.

And many of the 'legacy' CL programs don't use the names udev creates
(mdadm is one). And some do.

- --
Glenn English
***@slsware.com
Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
2008-11-16 13:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
Depends. Stuff in /dev/disk/by-uuid has never lead me astray.
However /dev/sd* nodes are named in the order the device is detected by
the kernel. It's not like that label is written to the disk.
Correct. And hotplug/unplug of SATA, SAS, SCSI, and even hotplug-enhanced
PATA will make your device go from sda (unplug+replug) to sde, for example.
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
I believe that disks on a single SCSI bus are always detected in order by
increasing SCSI id. However, /dev/sd* also includes USB and SATA devices,
Hot(un)plug will hose that.
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
Post by lee
If that is true, how does the user, how does the system know which
disk is which one?
The user starts using stuff like serial numbers or data written to the
storage media to identify it :-)
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
The system has no notion of "should be". The system uses the device name
you list in /etc/fstab. It's the administrator's responsibility to make
sure that's what should be referred to.
Indeed. And /dev/sd* in /etc/fstab is NOT an intelligent thing to do with
today's hardware.

Note that /dev/md* is fine, since md arrays HAVE data stored inside them
that makes them go up in the desired place.
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
Personally, I like using UUID= syntax to refer to my devices
(/dev/disk/by-uuid doesn't list logical volumes), but it does make the
lines in /etc/fstab a bit long. The LABEL= syntax is also a good one.
Agreed.
Post by Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
Post by lee
It seems I need to read up on this. Is there a good document that
explains it?
You can start with man udev, then a quick google for "linux udev how-to",
but I don't really know a definitive document.
Nor do I, and we really should have this stuff well documented and widely
available.
--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh
ghe
2008-11-15 19:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by lee
That is what I would expect. Are you saying that there is no way to
tell which disk is which one from the device names?
That's what I'm saying ("/dev/hd*" still means something, but "/dev/sd*"
doesn't), but I've been wrong before.

Notice: In spite of my earlier whinage, it isn't necessarily all udev's
fault.

<My own current beliefs>
As the system boots, the names in /dev are set by the kernel and udev in
initramfs. After boot, things stay the same, but if you leave a USB
stick (or USB external disk or, I suspect, eSATA or firewire or any
other external block device) plugged in when you reboot, things can move
around. Everything seems to be called /dev/sd<something>, but they
aren't necessarily referring to the same devices they were a few minutes
ago. If grub's config refers to the root partition by /dev name, the
boot will (probably) hang or fail. And if fstab refers to mounts by /dev
name, very odd things can happen.

Ubuntu's dealt with this by going to UUIDs in menu.lst and fstab.
Debian's installer's (lenny beta2) grub2 puts a UUID in menu.lst (new
name: grub.cfg), but leaves /dev names in fstab.

I've read that that IDE disks are supposed to be sd's too, but that
doesn't seem to happen on my systems. Yet.
Post by lee
If that is true, how does the user, how does the system know which
disk is which one?
The system doesn't care. It just scribbles on whatever it's asked to.
It's up to you to 'udevinfo -a -p /sys/block/sd<whatever>' to find out
which is which *before* you do something to a disk using the /dev name.

'df' will tell you the /dev/sd<whatever>s of the partitions that are
actually mounted.

'ls /dev/sd*' will tell you the /dev names of all the sd's that
currently exist.
Post by lee
It seems I need to read up on this. Is there a good document that
explains it?
I couldn't find one. I found several, all good at the time, I'm sure,
but they all said slightly different things.
</My own current beliefs>

- --
Glenn English
***@slsware.com
Douglas A. Tutty
2008-11-15 23:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by lee
Post by ghe
At the time of my misadventure, I was still expecting sda to be the
lowest ID on the lowest SCSI bus -- there were no SATAs at the time, not
around here anyway.
That is what I would expect. Are you saying that there is no way to
tell which disk is which one from the device names?
If that is true, how does the user, how does the system know which
disk is which one? As user, I can eventually tell with fdisk -l and
looking at the info --- *if* the disks are all different. But how does
the system figure out if the device refered to in /etc/fstab is
actually the device that should be refered to?
Lets say you have an old server with 12 disks on two scsi busses an
you're using mdadm (rather than a hardware raid card). Lets say that
all 12 drives are in one array (just to make life interesting). One of
those disks dies.

mdadm would have assembed the array (before the failure) and you can get
a list of /dev/sd? devices that make up the array. When a drive fails,
you get a message, presumably telling you that e.g. /dev/sde has failed.
How do you know which drive has failed so that you can swap it?

Doug.
ghe
2008-11-16 16:13:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas A. Tutty
Lets say you have an old server with 12 disks on two scsi busses an
you're using mdadm (rather than a hardware raid card). Lets say that
all 12 drives are in one array (just to make life interesting). One of
those disks dies.
mdadm would have assembed the array (before the failure) and you can get
a list of /dev/sd? devices that make up the array. When a drive fails,
you get a message, presumably telling you that e.g. /dev/sde has failed.
How do you know which drive has failed so that you can swap it?
Hmmm. That's something I haven't hit yet.

udev's a wonderful idea, and it almost works. If the installer (software
or wetware) created vendor / model / serial# rules for the drives it
works with, that would help a lot. There are just too many places in
*nix that expect at least some of the device names to hold still.


Here's another issue:

There's a DLT drive in my LAN server. mt, the mag tape utility, defaults
to a device name "tape" for it's target. But udev creates a directory in
/dev with that name, so I have to specify a target for mt. This isn't a
major problem -- I'd already done that in my scripts anyway -- but it's
another little flaw.

I created an early, local udev rule to create the SYMLINK, but the only
reason it works is that the kernel refuses when udev asks it to create
the directory (because /dev/tape already exists).

- --
Glenn English
***@slsware.com
martin f krafft
2008-11-16 16:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by ghe
There's a DLT drive in my LAN server. mt, the mag tape utility,
defaults to a device name "tape" for it's target. But udev creates
a directory in /dev with that name, so I have to specify a target
for mt. This isn't a major problem -- I'd already done that in my
scripts anyway -- but it's another little flaw.
This is clearly something that ought to be fixed. Remember, this is
Debian, so please file a bug report accordingly.
--
.''`. martin f. krafft <***@debian.org>
: :' : proud Debian developer, author, administrator, and user
`. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck - http://debiansystem.info
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

"i believe that the moment is near when by a procedure
of active paranoiac thought, it will be possible
to systematise confusion and contribute to
the total discrediting of the world of reality."
-- salvador dali
martin f krafft
2008-11-16 16:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas A. Tutty
Lets say you have an old server with 12 disks on two scsi busses an
you're using mdadm (rather than a hardware raid card). Lets say that
all 12 drives are in one array (just to make life interesting). One of
those disks dies.
mdadm would have assembed the array (before the failure) and you can get
a list of /dev/sd? devices that make up the array. When a drive fails,
you get a message, presumably telling you that e.g. /dev/sde has failed.
How do you know which drive has failed so that you can swap it?
Presumabily, /dev/sde is your fifth SCSI disk, probably the one with
ID 4 on the first controller. If that's not the case, you can always
find out more:

piper:~|master|% ls -lR /dev/disk | grep sdg$
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 2008-11-06 11:56 ata-Maxtor_7Y250M0_Y63XCJRE -> ../../sdg
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 2008-11-06 11:56 scsi-SATA_Maxtor_7Y250M0_Y63XCJRE -> ../../sdg
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 2008-11-06 11:56 pci-0000:00:0f.0-scsi-1:0:0:0 -> ../../sdg

piper:~|master|% lspci -s 00:0f.0
00:0f.0 RAID bus controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VIA VT6420 SATA RAID Controller (rev 80)


So you know the controller and you should be able to identify the
disk by following cables. Once you find the disk, you can verify the
serial number.

... unless you have little stickers on your disks like I, which tell
you right away what they are.

On the other hand, I tend to use /dev/disk/by-id/* whenever I can,
as opposed to /dev/[sh]d*.
--
.''`. martin f. krafft <***@debian.org>
: :' : proud Debian developer, author, administrator, and user
`. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck - http://debiansystem.info
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

"everyone has a little secret he keeps,
i like the fires when the city sleeps."
-- mc 900 ft jesus
mihkel
2008-11-14 10:40:15 UTC
Permalink
sonata+mpd
sound-juicer
GNOME
Brasero
Thunderbird/Icedove
Nautilus/bash
wget/Nautilus
Gimp
Eye of GNOME
Empathy/irssi for IRC
aptitude
Document viewer
OpenOffice Calc
rxvt-unicode
emacs
vlc/mplayer
firefox/iceweasel
OpenOffice.org
Tom Low-Shang
2008-11-14 17:16:25 UTC
Permalink
moc
jack
fvwm
postgresql
gcc, python
wodim
mutt
sql-ledger
lftp
wesnoth, bzflag
gimp
geeqie
gajim
rtorrent
aptitude
xpdf
gnumeric
urxvt
vim
mplayer
iceweasel
latex
skype
Post by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
SPECIAL CATEGORIES
--
Tom Low-Shang * JID ***@gmail.com
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
2008-11-14 21:14:40 UTC
Permalink
Amarok
KAudioCreator
KDE 3
PostgreSQL
K3B
KMail
Konqueror
Konqueror
Singularity
Pidgin
GNU Screen
Keychain
Git
KTorrent
Aptitutde
KPDF
OpenOffice.Org Calc
Konsole
Vim
Kaffeine
Konqueror
OpenOffice.Org Writer
If it's not free, it isn't F(L)OSS.
KDE 4 for Debian Stable.
All the java software committed to running on F(L)OSS [e.g. gcj]. They are
the reason we have OpenJDK now.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
***@volumehost.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.org/ \_/
Tshepang Lekhonkhobe
2008-11-28 13:08:48 UTC
Permalink
I see the poll has cooled and in that case I'll post my own
favourites. It's still open if you there's any late entries, and I
will post the results early next week. Here goes:

desktop OR window manager:
* GNOME

development:
* Geany, Python, GTK2

misc utilities:
* grep, Sudo, debmirror, Lsof, less, Meld, Uptimed, sort, wc, top,
svn, Tracker, File Roller, rc-alert (from devscripts), Ex Falso, GNOME
system monitor applet

package manager:
* Wajig

spreadsheet:
* Gnumeric

terminal emulator:
* GNOME Terminal

text editor:
* Scribes, nano

non-free:
* GMail
* Blogger (@blogspot.com)

any FLOSS deserving great honours (EG. Linux, GCC):
* GNU toolchain (GCC, GLibC, Binutils), Linux, coreutils, Xorg,
GTK+GLib, Qt, Apache, Latex, Perl, Python

anything unreleased and highly anticipated:
* HURD, Coyotos + BitC + BitCC

any organisation/community deserving great honours:
* GNU, Debian, GNOME, Fedora

any FLOSS developer deserving great honours:
* quite a few, but there's only one God, and that is Richard Stallman
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