Discussion:
Keep using Debian without GNOME and SystemD
(too old to reply)
Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
2014-10-22 06:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie with one of the defaults DE
and with no systemd utilities, i decided the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with
Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then
bye - bye Debian.
I'm even considering to try hard to convince those companies to contribute to LTS for Wheezy to keep it alive
and systemd free for as long it's possible.

Sorry, but no systemd for me. Systemd as init ( and only that ) i don't care.

Regards,
--
Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
Rusi Mody
2014-10-22 06:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
Hi,
after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie with one of the defaults DE
and with no systemd utilities, i decided the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with
Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then
bye - bye Debian.
I'm even considering to try hard to convince those companies to contribute to LTS for Wheezy to keep it alive
and systemd free for as long it's possible.
gnome and systemd are tightly coupled

For the rest, if you cant remove systemd (with say xfce or mate or...)
please post here the details, so others can verify/correct the dependencies
Post by Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
Sorry, but no systemd for me. Systemd as init ( and only that ) i don't care.
Please lets try and increase facts and decrease rhetoric
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Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
2014-10-22 07:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rusi Mody
Post by Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
Hi,
after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie with one of the defaults DE
and with no systemd utilities, i decided the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with
Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then
bye - bye Debian.
I'm even considering to try hard to convince those companies to contribute to LTS for Wheezy to keep it alive
and systemd free for as long it's possible.
gnome and systemd are tightly coupled
For the rest, if you cant remove systemd (with say xfce or mate or...)
please post here the details, so others can verify/correct the dependencies
What details do you think are neccecary ?

Just grab a DI-b2 img, install xfce or lxde ( with the menu or with
desktop= .... doesn't matter ) and then try to remove *all* the systemd
utilities / libraries etc.

At least I ( and others as i read in the "Perfect Jessie is something
like this" thread .. ) wasn't able to find the correct formula to remove
all systemd ecosystem.

regards
--
Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis <***@nephelae.eu>
Nephelae
Martin Read
2014-10-22 16:06:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
What details do you think are neccecary ?
Just grab a DI-b2 img, install xfce or lxde ( with the menu or with
desktop= .... doesn't matter ) and then try to remove *all* the systemd
utilities / libraries etc.
dbus-daemon is linked against libsystemd in Debian jessie. That's not
going to change at this point.

The Debian package of xfconf (XFCE's configuration mechanism) depends on
the package 'dbus-x11', which depends on the package 'dbus' (the one
that contains dbus-daemon), implying that it requires a working
dbus-daemon for correct operation.

Looking at the upstream website for XFCE, I see that xfconf lists dbus
as a *non-optional* dependency.

(This is leaving aside the whole matter of one of the programs in the
essential package 'bsdutils' now being linked against libsystemd as a
result of a perfectly reasonable decision.)
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Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
2014-10-22 16:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Read
Post by Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
What details do you think are neccecary ?
Just grab a DI-b2 img, install xfce or lxde ( with the menu or with
desktop= .... doesn't matter ) and then try to remove *all* the systemd
utilities / libraries etc.
dbus-daemon is linked against libsystemd in Debian jessie. That's not
going to change at this point.
The Debian package of xfconf (XFCE's configuration mechanism) depends
on the package 'dbus-x11', which depends on the package 'dbus' (the
one that contains dbus-daemon), implying that it requires a working
dbus-daemon for correct operation.
Looking at the upstream website for XFCE, I see that xfconf lists dbus
as a *non-optional* dependency.
(This is leaving aside the whole matter of one of the programs in the
essential package 'bsdutils' now being linked against libsystemd as a
result of a perfectly reasonable decision.)
This is getting nowhere ...

I tend to agree to the following post

"... the goal is to avoid making a derivative work. The GPL describes
various ways to recognise a project as having "derived" from covered
code, and linking copyleft and proprietary code together is one of them.
(with some variation depending on if we are talking GPL or LGPL).

Remember that one of Poettering's goals is, in his own words
[0pointer.net], "... the primary interfacing between the executed
desktop apps and the rest of the system is via IPC (which is why we work
on kdbus and teach it all kinds of sand-boxing features)".

The point is if I want to do (for example) some sort of user
authentication, I may have to link against libpam.so. This is something
that would be reasonably commoon in embedded systems, and linking
covered code into your embedded device (and having to distribute
libpam.so with your product) could easily be a derivative work. (details
matter, ask your lawyer about specific projecs).

Once absorbed into Poettering's project, you avoid all that risk because
you don't interface with the system features directly and instead use
"local RPC". This changes the project from being a potentially
infringing derivative work into something that merely uses the tool.
Merely using a tool that is licenced under the GPL is explicitly
excempted, as the GPL only coveres redistribution and not use. ("GPL is
not an EULA") This is a major change in legal status for your typical
embedded device, which often wants a minimal OS to host their embedded
app. They would also really like to avoid having to deal with the
handling anything GPL. Changing to "local RPC" for all system
interaction neatly fixes that problem.

We don't run across this pattern with traditional RPL tools, because
it's bad for performance to needlessly serialize everything when you
could simply call a function directly."

regards,
--
Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis<***@nephelae.eu>
Nephelae
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Jochen Spieker
2014-10-22 11:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie
with one of the defaults DE and with no systemd utilities, i decided
the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with
Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of
systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then bye - bye Debian.
Good luck finding *any* distro with a current Gnome that does not depend
on systemd.

I really don't get why Debian receives so much hate in this discussion.
Upstream software depending on systemd is not Debian's choice.

J.
--
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[Agree] [Disagree]
<http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html>
Anders Wegge Keller
2014-10-22 12:12:36 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:40:49 +0200
Post by Jochen Spieker
I really don't get why Debian receives so much hate in this discussion.
Upstream software depending on systemd is not Debian's choice.
Because of the abysmal lack of communication of the reasons behind the
descision. I tried to bring this up a few weeks back, but the arrogance from
the established debians are so extreme, that even a meta-debate is out of the
question.

People with good technical skills are often horrible at communication. My
conjecture is that the Debian developers have a higher than average level of
technical skills.
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Martin Steigerwald
2014-10-22 12:16:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jochen Spieker
Post by Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie
with one of the defaults DE and with no systemd utilities, i decided
the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with
Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of
systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then bye - bye Debian.
Good luck finding *any* distro with a current Gnome that does not depend
on systemd.
I really don't get why Debian receives so much hate in this discussion.
Upstream software depending on systemd is not Debian's choice.
I wouldn´t call above hate. More frustration with the current situation.


Anyway thats why I tried putting this upstream and even challenged subscribers
here to do so as well in quite direct words.

I tried putting it upstream in this thread:

[systemd-devel] I wonder… why systemd provokes this amount of polarity and
resistance
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023290.html


But I have given up on this.

I have been called names on systemd-devel – Lennart personally called me
"being a dick" – while trying hard to describe, explain and interpret my
obversations regarding systemd as PID 1, as umbrella project for quite a lot
of different functionalities and as a community project. I think I didn´t
personally attack anyone, while… still using clear words to channel some of
the concerns about systemd I read here and elsewhere upstream.

But I didn´t get it across. Lennart and other devs reacted as if I attacked
them personally. I bet its understandable given the history of bashing Lennart
and other devs of systemd and systemd in general has received. Yet as I see
it, I didn´t attack personally, but was attacked personally in return.

Since that does not work for me, I unsubscribed from the systemd-devel mailing
list.

One of the main reasoning for putting it all into one git repo and one big
package I read before that was: Because it is easy for development and
splitting things would add considerable cost.

While I agree with that… I also think that not splitting it, adds considerable
cost to downstreams and porters and actually harms adoption of systemd as
init. So I still think that just doing it the easy way does not necessarily
mean doing it the best way possible.

And from the reaction I received while talking, in quite direct words
admittedly, but without calling names and without assuming any bad intentions
as I repeatedly and explicetely stated there, I know better understand on why
systemd triggers the uproar, the polarity, and the split tendendencies and
tend to agree that Aaron Seigo has a point with:

Aaron Seigo, four paths, 7th of October 2014:
http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2014/10/four-paths.html

And while I have been repeatedly asked to stay on a technical level only
there… I see more than a technical issue here.

I am sad about the friction and cost it creates.

But I am also sure Debian as a project will manage.

I will stay with systemd on my personal systems for the time being. At least
the mean ones, except the server VM which is still Wheezy. Partly due to
learning things with systemd so I can prepare training slides for my Linux
trainings for it. Partly for helping that as long systemd remains the default
of Debian, it will be tested and work nicely.

But I am more open now to also look to alternatives as I think there are dire
issues with the path systemd upstream developers are choosing with developing
and advocating their project as well as with handling feedback and bug
reports.

I have seen it otherwise.

In the end I felt like being in a hostile environment and thus I finished my
reporting it upstream. Maybe systemd will be seriously forked, maybe uselessd
will be packaged, maybe someone steps up with a completely new init or
whatever…

… but I agree that it would be wise to ensure support for mutiple inits in
Debian for the time being. To restrict dependencies to it so that there will
be a good exit path in case it will be needed. So I am in favor for the GR Ian
started.

And well regarding GNOME: Its not GNOME 3 for me for various other reasons
already. I tried using it for one day during my trainings and then was so
happy being back at KDE / Plasma again. I still want to define how I want to
work with my computers. I don´t need developers deciding for me. For me KDE /
Plasma still gives me that choice to a very great extent.

Maybe I failed at avoiding personal attacks, but I still think I didn´t. On
any account, my attempt to bring this upstream did not produce the outcome I
wanted to produce, so I stopped it.


That said I never tried putting things upstream with GNOME so far… but my
hopes currently aren´t high that this would produce a desirable result. And… I
am not using GNOME. So I don´t care about GNOME upstream decisions as long as
they don´t affect the KDE / Plasma I am running adversely.
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
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lee
2014-10-26 23:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Steigerwald
Maybe I failed at avoiding personal attacks, but I still think I didn´t. On
any account, my attempt to bring this upstream did not produce the outcome I
wanted to produce, so I stopped it.
Well, remember what I told you?
--
Again we must be afraid of speaking of daemons for fear that daemons
might swallow us. Finally, this fear has become reasonable.
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Martin Steigerwald
2014-10-27 08:56:53 UTC
Permalink
Please do not Cc me personally.

Hello Lee,
Post by lee
Post by Martin Steigerwald
Maybe I failed at avoiding personal attacks, but I still think I didn´t. On
any account, my attempt to bring this upstream did not produce the outcome
I wanted to produce, so I stopped it.
Well, remember what I told you?
Well yes.

You didn´t know the outcome. I didn´t either. You guessed. Unfortunately the
outcome was more as you guessed than as I hoped.

So what actually is the point.

Ciao,
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
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lee
2014-10-27 19:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Steigerwald
Please do not Cc me personally.
Hello Lee,
Post by lee
Post by Martin Steigerwald
Maybe I failed at avoiding personal attacks, but I still think I didn´t. On
any account, my attempt to bring this upstream did not produce the outcome
I wanted to produce, so I stopped it.
Well, remember what I told you?
Well yes.
You didn´t know the outcome. I didn´t either. You guessed. Unfortunately the
outcome was more as you guessed than as I hoped.
So what actually is the point.
The point is that I was right and you were wrong. It wasn't right
of you to so strongly urge people to "take issues upstream". It's not
as easy to "faciliate change" as you seem to think.
--
Again we must be afraid of speaking of daemons for fear that daemons
might swallow us. Finally, this fear has become reasonable.
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Chris Bannister
2014-10-28 11:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by lee
The point is that I was right and you were wrong. It wasn't right
of you to so strongly urge people to "take issues upstream". It's not
as easy to "faciliate change" as you seem to think.
Now I know what the following joke means:

"There is a man on his hands and knees searching around him. A man comes
along and asks what is the problem. He says I've lost 10 dollars, so the
man bends down and starts helping him look. After a while of futile
searching the man says, hmmm, this isn't getting us anywhere; where did
you lose it. The man replies, Further on up the road, but the light's
better here."

There's not much debian-user can do about facilitating change whether
upstream is receptive or not.
--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
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Joel Rees
2014-10-29 04:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bannister
Post by lee
The point is that I was right and you were wrong. It wasn't right
of you to so strongly urge people to "take issues upstream". It's not
as easy to "faciliate change" as you seem to think.
"There is a man on his hands and knees searching around him. A man comes
along and asks what is the problem. He says I've lost 10 dollars, so the
"I've lost my linux-based operating system distribution and community."
Post by Chris Bannister
man bends down and starts helping him look. After a while of futile
searching the man says, hmmm, this isn't getting us anywhere; where did
you lose it. The man replies, Further on up the road, but the light's
better here."
There's not much debian-user can do about facilitating change whether
upstream is receptive or not.
I dunno. That sounds a little cynical to me.

--
Joel Rees

Computer memory is just fancy paper,
CPUs just fancy pens.
All is a stream of text
flowing from the past into the future.
Chris Bannister
2014-11-01 14:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joel Rees
Post by Chris Bannister
Post by lee
The point is that I was right and you were wrong. It wasn't right
of you to so strongly urge people to "take issues upstream". It's not
as easy to "faciliate change" as you seem to think.
"There is a man on his hands and knees searching around him. A man comes
along and asks what is the problem. He says I've lost 10 dollars, so the
"I've lost my linux-based operating system distribution and community."
So you want the link to the netinst image, why didn't you say?
http://www.debian.org/distrib/netinst
Post by Joel Rees
Post by Chris Bannister
man bends down and starts helping him look. After a while of futile
searching the man says, hmmm, this isn't getting us anywhere; where did
you lose it. The man replies, Further on up the road, but the light's
better here."
There's not much debian-user can do about facilitating change whether
upstream is receptive or not.
I dunno. That sounds a little cynical to me.
Come on Lee, unless you are going to write patches and submit them to
the Debian maintainer via the BTS, which I gather from your mails is not
your intention, then what can complaining on debian-user about upstream
achieve?
--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
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The Wanderer
2014-11-01 23:44:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bannister
Post by Joel Rees
Post by Chris Bannister
"There is a man on his hands and knees searching around him. A
man comes along and asks what is the problem. He says I've lost
10 dollars, so the
"I've lost my linux-based operating system distribution and
community."
So you want the link to the netinst image, why didn't you say?
http://www.debian.org/distrib/netinst
I think is point was more that what's available there is no longer the
Linux-based distro which he lost (much less its associated community,
since presumably that community would have rejected the things he's
objecting to out of hand). As I suspect you're aware, unless you were
being deliberately obtuse.
Post by Chris Bannister
Post by Joel Rees
Post by Chris Bannister
man bends down and starts helping him look. After a while of
futile searching the man says, hmmm, this isn't getting us
anywhere; where did you lose it. The man replies, Further on up
the road, but the light's better here."
There's not much debian-user can do about facilitating change
whether upstream is receptive or not.
I dunno. That sounds a little cynical to me.
Come on Lee, unless you are going to write patches and submit them
to the Debian maintainer via the BTS, which I gather from your mails
is not your intention, then what can complaining on debian-user about
upstream achieve?
It can help raise and/or maintain awareness and objection in other
people, which helps promote pushback against and resistance to the
movement already underway which some people (apparently including lee)
find so strongly objectionable.

Or, depending on the attitudes and biases of the community, it may
actually hinder rather than promote those things - by making advocacy
for them look ugly and unpleasant, the sort of thing with which one
might not want to associate oneself.

I obviously don't know for certain where the attitudes and biases of the
community (including the presumably silent majority) stand - not even
for the debian-user community, much less the broader Debian or even *nix
community in general. Judging from the level of reaction there is and
isn't, however, I suspect that there is at least enough sympathy for his
viewpoint that he's not definitely doing his cause more harm than good.
--
The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
lee
2014-11-03 23:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bannister
Post by Joel Rees
Post by Chris Bannister
man bends down and starts helping him look. After a while of futile
searching the man says, hmmm, this isn't getting us anywhere; where did
you lose it. The man replies, Further on up the road, but the light's
better here."
There's not much debian-user can do about facilitating change whether
upstream is receptive or not.
I dunno. That sounds a little cynical to me.
Come on Lee, unless you are going to write patches and submit them to
the Debian maintainer via the BTS, which I gather from your mails is not
your intention, then what can complaining on debian-user about upstream
achieve?
If you mean me, I didn't write this.
--
Again we must be afraid of speaking of daemons for fear that daemons
might swallow us. Finally, this fear has become reasonable.
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Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
2014-10-22 12:29:00 UTC
Permalink
Στις 22-10-2014, ηΌέρα ΀ετ, και ώρα 13:40 +0200, ο/η Jochen Spieker
Post by Jochen Spieker
Post by Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie
with one of the defaults DE and with no systemd utilities, i decided
the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with
Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of
systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then bye - bye Debian.
Good luck finding *any* distro with a current Gnome that does not depend
on systemd.
I'm hopping for a Debian/xfce with no systemd deps, Gnome is not a
requirement.
Post by Jochen Spieker
I really don't get why Debian receives so much hate in this discussion.
Upstream software depending on systemd is not Debian's choice.
I really, really don't hate Debian. I respect the choice reg. systemd,
just I make a choice to not use it and it's ecosystem and if this is
going to be impossible to do with Debian then i've need to use something
else. But as read the various threads here reg. the removal of systemd I
don't think that will happen . :)

regards,
--
Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis <***@nephelae.eu>
Nephelae
Rusi Mody
2014-10-22 13:11:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jochen Spieker
Post by Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie
with one of the defaults DE and with no systemd utilities, i decided
the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with
Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of
systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then bye - bye Debian.
Good luck finding *any* distro with a current Gnome that does not depend
on systemd.
I really don't get why Debian receives so much hate in this discussion.
Upstream software depending on systemd is not Debian's choice.
I guess because Debian spokespersons [whatever that may mean :-) ]
are not clear enough to say that the problem is more gnome than systemd.

All that debian has to say officially is (something like):

- If you want gnome you get systemd. Not ideal but currently cant be helped.
[Alternatives to gnome are x,y,z...]
- If you dont take gnome then debian guarantees init-system-independence; to wit:
Take any one of systemd, upstart, sysv, (or others?) and everything should work
If not its a bug, please file a report and debian will try to close it.
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Miles Fidelman
2014-10-22 13:49:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rusi Mody
Post by Jochen Spieker
Post by Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie
with one of the defaults DE and with no systemd utilities, i decided
the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with
Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of
systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then bye - bye Debian.
Good luck finding *any* distro with a current Gnome that does not depend
on systemd.
I really don't get why Debian receives so much hate in this discussion.
Upstream software depending on systemd is not Debian's choice.
I guess because Debian spokespersons [whatever that may mean :-) ]
are not clear enough to say that the problem is more gnome than systemd.
- If you want gnome you get systemd. Not ideal but currently cant be helped.
[Alternatives to gnome are x,y,z...]
Take any one of systemd, upstart, sysv, (or others?) and everything should work
If not its a bug, please file a report and debian will try to close it.
And, unfortunately, that second statement is not being enforced -- for
example by including a choice of init systems in the installer. At the
moment, the install preseed mechanism that would allow one to chose
another init system is broken (there's a contributed patch, but it
doesn't seem to be a priority to include that in the upcoming release).
Worse, it is proving rather difficult to replace systemd once installed
- without getting dragged into dependency hell. Bugs related to init
system dependencies do NOT seem to be getting any priority. And it was
such a nice distribution. Sigh...

Miles Fidelman
--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
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Miles Fidelman
2014-10-22 13:44:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jochen Spieker
Post by Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie
with one of the defaults DE and with no systemd utilities, i decided
the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with
Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of
systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then bye - bye Debian.
Good luck finding *any* distro with a current Gnome that does not depend
on systemd.
As some of us continue to point out - a large component of Debian users
do not care about what's on the desktop - because we run headless
servers, and live at the command line.
Post by Jochen Spieker
I really don't get why Debian receives so much hate in this discussion.
Upstream software depending on systemd is not Debian's choice.
This is not about upstream software developers deciding to use systemd,
this is about a single, influential, upstream developer (Gnome)
basically blackmailing distros into accepting systemd running as PID1 -
by not doing what every other upstream developer has (and continues to
do) - supporting the well established init system. (Any other uptream
developers care to comment on this?).

We now have PID1 occupied by a piece of code who's prime developer wants
to gobble up more and more functionality, and has written very publicly
about all the ways he wants to fundamentally reshape Linux. Given that
the kernel hands/off control of the system to PID1, he is now in a
position to implement such fundamental change with impunity.

The Debian technical committee went along and took Ubuntu with it. Until
this, Debian has been probably the cleanest of all distros when it comes
to packaging (apt) and general architecture. For at least some of this,
that decision is the first step on a road to the end of Linux as we know
it.

IMHO, that requires serious, and continued dissent, as well as some
righteous anger. The blind, fanboyish defense of systemd, by some,
particularly when accompanied by derision of critics ('shut up,' 'go
away'), even more so when taken to the level of trollish repetition,
deserves far harsher responses.

Just one man's opinion,

Miles Fidelman
--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
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t***@riseup.net
2014-10-27 02:49:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jochen Spieker
Post by Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie
with one of the defaults DE and with no systemd utilities, i decided
the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with
Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of
systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then bye - bye Debian.
Good luck finding *any* distro with a current Gnome that does not
depend
on systemd.
http://www.funtoo.org/Welcome :
GNOME 3.12 (without systemd, because that's how we roll.)
as far i can tell, gnome3 is not my thing.
Post by Jochen Spieker
I really don't get why Debian receives so much hate in this discussion.
Upstream software depending on systemd is not Debian's choice.
I do recall times when Debian had quite stubborn discussions (still
lasting, btw) with upstream about questions not really worth it. Don't
think it has earned hate though, but a bit more resistance wouldn't
have hurt. And a project of that size would be heard it it speaks up
(it's not just a few derivates of Debian where the users complain bout
down-your-throat-systemd in the according fora).
But in general i agree: staying friendly would be better. I guess that
was your point.
Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
2014-10-31 08:24:27 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 09:01:17 +0300
Post by Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
Hi,
after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie
with one of the defaults DE and with no systemd utilities, i decided
the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with
Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of
systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then bye - bye Debian. I'm
even considering to try hard to convince those companies to
contribute to LTS for Wheezy to keep it alive and systemd free for as
long it's possible.
Sorry, but no systemd for me. Systemd as init ( and only that ) i don't care.
Hi Dimitrios,
Before you cast aside Debian and move to [Gentoo | Funtoo | Slackware |
BSD] (and I'm not saying I won't do the exact same thing), but, before
you do that, humor me and try the non-systemd Jessie with Openbox plus
a panel if you want a panel. If you can't make that work, yeah, I see
your point. But it's just possible that a non-entangled window manager
might work well with a no-systemd Jessie. And if that happens, that
window manager can be made into an excellent and fast work environment,
and I can show you how.
Thank you for your suggestion.

Currently i'm trying to see in what shape the Debian/Hurd is. It's my
first
choice to escape from systemd and still use Debian.

Will see.

Regards,
--
Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
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