Discussion:
Printing with lprng; no CUPS! :-)
(too old to reply)
s. keeling
2007-06-13 22:36:57 UTC
Permalink
This is on Etch with "Desktop Environment" de-selected on install (no
Gnome or KDE :-). Perhaps my mistake was in installing xserver-xorg
before printer configuration. Surely then, it would notice there'd be
no web browser it could be configured with? Or can you confure CUPS
with w3m? :-P

It's amazing how difficult this has become via the packaging system.
It's also amazing how easy it is to fix it by hand:

- aptitude -R install foomatic-filters-ppds[*]

- Look for your printer model (or something close) in:

/usr/share/ppd/foomatic-rip/linuxprinting.org-gs-builtin/

where you'll find them split up by manufacturer name.

In my case, it was Epson/Epson-Stylus_Photo_870-Stp870p.upp.ppd.gz,
and that I:

- dumped into a new directory, /usr/local/ppd, and gunzipped it.

- Drop that into /etc/printcap:

lp0|To Your Left: \
:lp=/dev/lp0: \
:force_localhost: \
:if=/usr/bin/foomatic-rip: \
:ppd=/usr/local/ppd/Epson-Stylus_Photo_870-Stp870p.upp.ppd: \
:sd=/var/spool/lpd/lp: \
:mx#0:sh:

and it just works! Why have we made this so difficult? Why bother
with something as clunky as foomatic-configure when apparently all it
does is edit that one line specifying the ppd file (and in the case of
lprng, badly)?

Just getting foomatic-gui on the box drags in cupsys and removes
lprng! Why? linuxprinting.org says the thing works with pretty much
any spooler, so why's it so difficult to get the packaging tools to
allow it?

How about a feature request for the next version of apt*:

--user-prefers-subsystem=blah

or

--user-forbids-subsystem=blah

so I can tell it I do not, under any circumstances, want blah, or if
there's a potential alternative, go with my preference if I specify
one.

And finally:

------------------------------------
aptitude -R install foomatic-filters-ppds

The following packages are unused and will be REMOVED:
bsh cpp cpp-4.1 dbus discover1 discover1-data gcj-4.1-base gij gij-4.1
hicolor-icon-theme libatk1.0-data libdiscover1 libft-perl libgcj-bc libgcj-common
libgcj7-0 libgcj7-awt libgcj7-jar libglade2-0 libglib2.0-data libgtk2.0-bin
libjaxp1.3-java libjline-java libjpeg-progs libpaper-utils libttf2 libxalan2-java
libxerces2-java libxprintapputil1 libxprintutil1 libxt-java libxxf86misc1 mdetect
myspell-en-us openoffice.org-java-common psfontmgr sgml-base x-ttcidfont-conf
xfonts-base xfonts-utils xli xml-core xprint-utils xresprobe xscreensaver xutils
xutils-dev
------------------------------------

Oh, great! :-P xfonts-base?!? xscreensaver?!? discover1,
discover1-data?!? mdetect?!? Where is the connection between a deb
full of printer data, and base X Window fonts? Now I have a whole
list of things I need to check into before I dare reboot this thing.

Considering all the confusion and myriad pleas from people trying to
get CUPS working on their systems, should we really be going down this
road? CUPS has made a mess of printer configuration.


[*] "aptitude search foomatic" shows this. I've no idea whether
they're necessary now that I have the one ppd file I needed:

i A foomatic-db - linuxprinting.org printer support - database
i foomatic-db-engine - linuxprinting.org printer support - programs
i foomatic-db-gutenprint - linuxprinting.org printer support - database fo
i A foomatic-filters - linuxprinting.org printer support - filters
i foomatic-filters-ppds - linuxprinting.org printer support - prebuilt PP
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
CaT
2007-06-13 22:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by s. keeling
This is on Etch with "Desktop Environment" de-selected on install (no
Gnome or KDE :-). Perhaps my mistake was in installing xserver-xorg
before printer configuration. Surely then, it would notice there'd be
no web browser it could be configured with? Or can you confure CUPS
with w3m? :-P
You can configure CUPS not just with w3m but also with vim. :)
Post by s. keeling
aptitude -R install foomatic-filters-ppds
And what does apt-get install foomatic-filters-ppds get you?
...
Post by s. keeling
Considering all the confusion and myriad pleas from people trying to
get CUPS working on their systems, should we really be going down this
road? CUPS has made a mess of printer configuration.
It has? WFM. First go too.
--
"To the extent that we overreact, we proffer the terrorists the
greatest tribute."
- High Court Judge Michael Kirby
s. keeling
2007-06-14 01:29:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by CaT
Post by s. keeling
This is on Etch with "Desktop Environment" de-selected on install (no
Gnome or KDE :-). Perhaps my mistake was in installing xserver-xorg
before printer configuration. Surely then, it would notice there'd be
no web browser it could be configured with? Or can you [configure] CUPS
with w3m? :-P
You can configure CUPS not just with w3m but also with vim. :)
Sorry to hear that.
Post by CaT
Post by s. keeling
aptitude -R install foomatic-filters-ppds
And what does apt-get install foomatic-filters-ppds get you?
-------------------------------
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ dpkg -L foomatic-filters-ppds | wc -l
2696
-------------------------------

So, perhaps ca. two thousand, six hundred, and ninety five files which
have nothing to do with my printer? At least they're all gzipped ...
Post by CaT
...
Post by s. keeling
Considering all the confusion and myriad pleas from people trying to
get CUPS working on their systems, should we really be going down this
road? CUPS has made a mess of printer configuration.
It has? WFM. First go too.
Good for you, I'm glad for you; and irrelevant. Yes, CUPS works.
What if you don't want to use CUPS? Have you not seen all the posts
from noobs pleading for help with CUPS configs? I'm supporting a
person who's using CUPS. Going to the CUPS localhost:631 port gets us
a username & password prompt, and even root password is refused (*buntu).

BTW, see my .sig, please.
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
CaT
2007-06-14 01:40:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by s. keeling
Post by CaT
Post by s. keeling
aptitude -R install foomatic-filters-ppds
And what does apt-get install foomatic-filters-ppds get you?
-------------------------------
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ dpkg -L foomatic-filters-ppds | wc -l
2696
That doesn't answer my question when taken in the context of your
original statement.
Post by s. keeling
So, perhaps ca. two thousand, six hundred, and ninety five files which
have nothing to do with my printer? At least they're all gzipped ...
Lets see... it has printer ppds and a bit of documentation. Precisely
what you asked it to install. Sure, they could split it up to 2700
packages but I think the maintainer felt it was more manageable this
way.
Post by s. keeling
Post by CaT
...
Post by s. keeling
Considering all the confusion and myriad pleas from people trying to
get CUPS working on their systems, should we really be going down this
road? CUPS has made a mess of printer configuration.
It has? WFM. First go too.
Good for you, I'm glad for you; and irrelevant. Yes, CUPS works.
What if you don't want to use CUPS? Have you not seen all the posts
Then don't use it.
Post by s. keeling
from noobs pleading for help with CUPS configs? I'm supporting a
person who's using CUPS. Going to the CUPS localhost:631 port gets us
a username & password prompt, and even root password is refused (*buntu).
Ubuntus configuration of CUPS is prettymuch irrelevant on a debian mailing
list.

Debians configuration of CUPS and its web based configuration allows me
to use the root password to configure and manage it.
--
"To the extent that we overreact, we proffer the terrorists the
greatest tribute."
- High Court Judge Michael Kirby
Anthony Campbell
2007-06-14 14:52:27 UTC
Permalink
On 14 Jun 2007, CaT wrote:
[snip]
Post by CaT
Then don't use it.
I gave up on CUPS a long time ago. I did have it working but the results
using plain lpr and magicfilter are better, at least for me, and a lot
easier to maintain, including remote printing.


Anthony
--
Anthony Campbell - ***@acampbell.org.uk
Microsoft-free zone - Using Linux Gnu-Debian
http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews,
on-line books and sceptical articles)
s. keeling
2007-06-14 17:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Campbell
Post by CaT
Then don't use it.
I gave up on CUPS a long time ago. I did have it working but the results
Previous to this non-DE install, I did a full Etch install just to see
what it was like. I had CUPS working. It printed one listing, then
refused to do any more. I have no need for flakey software like that.
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
Rachel Seok
2007-06-15 02:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I'm creating the VLAN on my Debian.

Is there anyway I can create subinterfaces within a same VLAN??

Thanks and regards,

Rachel Seok
Rachel Seok
2007-06-18 01:49:01 UTC
Permalink
Is there anyone familiar with VLAN on debian??
Can someone help me??
Looking for solution for "subinterfaces within a same VLAN"....

Pleaseee... helppp...

regards,
Rachel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rachel Seok" <***@hotmail.com>
To: <debian-***@lists.debian.org>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 10:18 AM
Subject: Subinterface within a same VLAN
Post by Rachel Seok
Hi,
I'm creating the VLAN on my Debian.
Is there anyway I can create subinterfaces within a same VLAN??
Thanks and regards,
Rachel Seok
--
Andrew Sackville-West
2007-06-18 18:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rachel Seok
Is there anyone familiar with VLAN on debian??
probably
Post by Rachel Seok
Can someone help me??
surely
Post by Rachel Seok
Looking for solution for "subinterfaces within a same VLAN"....
a few things Rachel.

1) your initial email was buried in an unrelated
discussion about printing and so people either didn't see it or
ignored it. You need to post a NEW thread by mailing a new message
(not a reply) to debian-***@lists.debian.org.

2) your original question is so broad that its essentially
useless. This is like asking: "Is there any way I can drive my Chevy
car on a black road?"

3) your original question is a yes or no question. I suppose I could
answer it for you: yes. but that's just a guess as I've not done
it.

4) You have provided no information about what you are really trying
to do. Please post an informative summary about what you are really
trying to do. Include stuff you've tried that didn't work for
you. Include sources you've looked at that you tried or maybe
couldn't understand. Otherwise we're starting from scratch here and
it probably a frustrating waste of time for everyone.
Post by Rachel Seok
Pleaseee... helppp...
you must appear to at least *try* to help yourself.

sorry if this seems rude, but there it is.

A
Post by Rachel Seok
regards,
Rachel
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 10:18 AM
Subject: Subinterface within a same VLAN
Post by Rachel Seok
Hi,
I'm creating the VLAN on my Debian.
Is there anyway I can create subinterfaces within a same VLAN??
Thanks and regards,
Rachel Seok
--
--
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
s. keeling
2007-06-14 17:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by CaT
Post by s. keeling
Good for you, I'm glad for you; and irrelevant. Yes, CUPS works.
What if you don't want to use CUPS? Have you not seen all the posts
Then don't use it.
Sigh. My point is, that's far easier said than done! Damned near
everything drags in CUPS. I already had lprng installed, and
foomatic-* wanted to remove it and install CUPS. Should I just
complain to linuxprinting.org that they're flat out lying when they
say I can use pretty much any spooler? That's not true, but Debian's
packaging system appears to think it is.

Why is it that when I do a non-DE install, then install fluxbox, it
doesn't drag in xserver-xorg? Can fluxbox be used without X? Why the
double standard?

Why does CUPS (and Gnome, and KDE ...) get such close dependency ties
when others, which really are close dependencies, don't?
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
Florian Kulzer
2007-06-14 19:59:23 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Jun 14, 2007 at 17:21:50 +0000, s. keeling wrote:

[...]
Post by s. keeling
Damned near
everything drags in CUPS. I already had lprng installed, and
foomatic-* wanted to remove it and install CUPS. Should I just
complain to linuxprinting.org that they're flat out lying when they
say I can use pretty much any spooler? That's not true, but Debian's
packaging system appears to think it is.
Why is it that when I do a non-DE install, then install fluxbox, it
doesn't drag in xserver-xorg? Can fluxbox be used without X? Why the
double standard?
I think the idea in this specific case is to allow for setups in which
the X server runs on a different computer.
Post by s. keeling
Why does CUPS (and Gnome, and KDE ...) get such close dependency ties
when others, which really are close dependencies, don't?
Is it really that bad as far as CUPS is concerned? I have stable,
testing, unstable and experimental in my sources.list. These are the
packages which depend on cupsys AND do NOT specify an alternative
dependency on lprng AND do NOT have "cups" in their name OR their
package description:

$ aptitude -F '%p' search '~Dcupsys!~D^lprng$!(~ncups|~dcups)'
gnustep-gui-runtime
katoob
kdelibs4-dev
kdelibs4c2a
libfox-1.6-0
libfox-1.6-dev
libfox1.4
libfox1.4-dev
libgnomeprint2.2-0
libgtk2.0-0
libqt3-mt-dev
netatalk
rezound
samba
scribus
scribus-ng
swat
xfprint4

OK, I see, libgtk2.0-0 might be difficult to avoid on a desktop system
and it depends on libcupsys2 in Lenny and Sid. However, the foomatic-*
packages do not seem to depend on any CUPS packages. foomatic-filters
and foomatic-filters-ppds both recommend cupsys, but that should only be
a problem if you have told your package manager to install recommended
packages automatically.
--
Regards, | http://users.icfo.es/Florian.Kulzer
Florian |
s. keeling
2007-06-14 21:19:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Florian Kulzer
Post by s. keeling
Damned near
everything drags in CUPS. I already had lprng installed, and
foomatic-* wanted to remove it and install CUPS. Should I just
Is it really that bad as far as CUPS is concerned? I have stable,
---------------------------------------
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ aptitude show foomatic-gui
Package: foomatic-gui
State: not installed
Version: 0.7.7
Priority: optional
Section: gnome
Maintainer: Chris Lawrence <***@debian.org>
Uncompressed Size: 258k
Depends: python, python-foomatic (>= 0.7.7), python-gtk2 (> 2.6), python-gnome2,
python-glade2, gksu, python-gnome2-extras
Recommends: netcat, pconf-detect, nmap, smbclient
...
---------------------------------------

Note, I have python-foomatic installed. I don't see cupsys in there
anywhere.

---------------------------------------
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ aptitude -s install foomatic-gui
...
The following packages will be automatically REMOVED:
lprng
The following NEW packages will be installed:
aspell aspell-en binutils cpp cpp-4.1 cupsys cupsys-bsd cupsys-client cupsys-common
esound-clients esound-common fam foomatic-gui gcc gcc-4.1 gconf2 gconf2-common gksu
gnome-icon-theme gnome-keyring gnome-media gnome-media-common gnome-mime-data
gstreamer0.10-alsa gstreamer0.10-plugins-base gstreamer0.10-plugins-good
gstreamer0.10-x hicolor-icon-theme libaa1 libart-2.0-2 libaspell15 libaudiofile0
libavahi-client3 libavahi-common-data libavahi-common3 libavahi-glib1 libavc1394-0
libbonobo2-0 libbonobo2-common libbonoboui2-0 libbonoboui2-common libc6-dev
libcaca0 libcdio6 libcdparanoia0 libcroco3 libcucul0 libdbus-glib-1-2 libdv4
libesd0 libfam0 libgail-common libgail17 libgconf2-4 libgda2-3 libgda2-bin
libgda2-common libgdl-1-0 libgdl-1-common libgksu1.2-0 libgksu2-0 libgksuui1.0-1
libglib1.2 libglib2.0-dev libgnome-keyring0 libgnome-media0 libgnome2-0
libgnome2-common libgnomecanvas2-0 libgnomecanvas2-common libgnomecups1.0-1
libgnomeprint2.2-0 libgnomeprint2.2-data libgnomeprintui2.2-0
libgnomeprintui2.2-common libgnomeui-0 libgnomeui-common libgnomevfs2-0
libgnomevfs2-common libgnomevfs2-extra libgsf-1-114 libgsf-1-common libgtk2.0-bin
libgtkhtml2-0 libgtksourceview-common libgtksourceview1.0-0 libgtkspell0 libgtop2-7
libgtop2-common libhal-storage1 libidl0 libiec61883-0 libmetacity0 libmozjs0d
libmudflap0 libmudflap0-dev libnautilus-burn3 liboil0.3 liborbit2
libpanel-applet2-0 libpoppler0c2 libprinterconf0c2a libprintsys libraw1394-8
librsvg2-2 librsvg2-common libshout3 libslp1 libsmbclient libsnmpkit2c2a libspeex1
libssp0 libtag1c2a libtdb1 libtheora0 libtotem-plparser1 libvisual-0.4-0
libvisual-0.4-plugins libwnck-common libwnck18 libxdamage1 libxres1 libxul-common
libxul0d linux-kernel-headers metacity-common nmap oss-compat pconf-detect
pkg-config poppler-utils python-cairo python-glade2 python-gnome2
python-gnome2-desktop python-gnome2-extras python-gtk2 python-numeric
python-pyorbit samba-common sgml-base shared-mime-info smbclient sudo tdb-dev
The following packages will be REMOVED:
lprng
0 packages upgraded, 145 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 17.7MB/57.0MB of archives. After unpacking 201MB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] n
---------------------------------------

I rest my case.
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
John Hasler
2007-06-14 22:51:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by s. keeling
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ aptitude -s install foomatic-gui
...
lprng
...
...
toncho/~ sudo apt-get -s install foomatic-gui
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
foomatic-db foomatic-db-engine foomatic-filters python-foomatic python-glade2 python-gobject python-gtk2
python-ipy
Suggested packages:
foomatic-db-hpijs foomatic-db-gutenprint foo2zjs cupsys
Recommended packages:
pconf-detect smbclient python-gtk2-doc
The following NEW packages will be installed:
foomatic-db foomatic-db-engine foomatic-filters foomatic-gui python-foomatic python-glade2 python-gobject
python-ipy
The following packages will be upgraded:
python-gtk2
Post by s. keeling
No wonder it wanted to pull in 145 packages: you're a text mode
octogenarian!
No. He's a cocky young whippersnapper.
--
John Hasler
CaT
2007-06-15 01:39:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hasler
Post by s. keeling
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ aptitude -s install foomatic-gui
...
lprng
...
...
toncho/~ sudo apt-get -s install foomatic-gui
Thank you. At least someone figured out that there was a reason why one
might want to try apt-get instead. Aptitude, imo, tries too hard to err
on the side of the completely clueless user.
--
"To the extent that we overreact, we proffer the terrorists the
greatest tribute."
- High Court Judge Michael Kirby
Douglas Allan Tutty
2007-06-15 12:17:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by CaT
Post by John Hasler
Post by s. keeling
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ aptitude -s install foomatic-gui
...
lprng
toncho/~ sudo apt-get -s install foomatic-gui
Thank you. At least someone figured out that there was a reason why one
might want to try apt-get instead. Aptitude, imo, tries too hard to err
on the side of the completely clueless user.
Could some of that problem be having aptitude treat recommends as
required?

I only have a 26 year old dot-matrix printer; I use plain-old lpr.
On the box that still has a paralell port, I have a pretty full
text-mode environment plus minimal X (not all of xorg) and icewm. On
that box, aptitude search '~i~dcups' shows nothing.

On my main box, I currently have no print spooler. However, there is a
driver in the gs-esp package that will print postscript on my dot-matrix
printer. That gs does require libcupsys2 and libcupsimage2; between the
two that's 565k uncompressed size. Nothing else that I have installed
requires anything related to cups.

Doug.
CaT
2007-06-15 12:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
Could some of that problem be having aptitude treat recommends as
required?
Or something similar. I gave up on aptitude within a few minutes of
trying to use it during my upgrade to sarge. It completely refused to,
getting lost in a mess of its own design (or so it seemed). apt-get just
did as it was told and no more and it all went smoothly.
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
On my main box, I currently have no print spooler. However, there is a
driver in the gs-esp package that will print postscript on my dot-matrix
printer. That gs does require libcupsys2 and libcupsimage2; between the
two that's 565k uncompressed size. Nothing else that I have installed
requires anything related to cups.
There's also the gs-gpl package which does not.
--
"To the extent that we overreact, we proffer the terrorists the
greatest tribute."
- High Court Judge Michael Kirby
Douglas Allan Tutty
2007-06-15 13:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by CaT
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
Could some of that problem be having aptitude treat recommends as
required?
Or something similar. I gave up on aptitude within a few minutes of
trying to use it during my upgrade to sarge. It completely refused to,
getting lost in a mess of its own design (or so it seemed). apt-get just
did as it was told and no more and it all went smoothly.
Probably the absolutely worst time to try to switch to aptitude. It
didn't know what was manually installed, installed to meet dependancies,
or what. Aptitude starts out confused (like HAL, it can only sing Daisy
Daisy).
Post by CaT
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
On my main box, I currently have no print spooler. However, there is a
driver in the gs-esp package that will print postscript on my dot-matrix
printer. That gs does require libcupsys2 and libcupsimage2; between the
two that's 565k uncompressed size. Nothing else that I have installed
requires anything related to cups.
There's also the gs-gpl package which does not.
Doesn't include the ML-whatever OkiData driver for my IBM Personal
Computer Graphics Printer (the one pictured with the 'New' IBM PC in
history books).

Doug.
CaT
2007-06-15 14:01:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
Post by CaT
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
Could some of that problem be having aptitude treat recommends as
required?
Or something similar. I gave up on aptitude within a few minutes of
trying to use it during my upgrade to sarge. It completely refused to,
getting lost in a mess of its own design (or so it seemed). apt-get just
did as it was told and no more and it all went smoothly.
Probably the absolutely worst time to try to switch to aptitude. It
Well it was recommended as the thing to use in the install/upgrade docs
so I thought I'd give it a whirl.
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
didn't know what was manually installed, installed to meet dependancies,
or what. Aptitude starts out confused (like HAL, it can only sing Daisy
Daisy).
Yeah but at the minimum it should know what is installed and what it needs
to be upgraded to. At the minimum it should function no better (or
worse) then apt-get if it is to be a replacement for it.
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
Post by CaT
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
On my main box, I currently have no print spooler. However, there is a
driver in the gs-esp package that will print postscript on my dot-matrix
printer. That gs does require libcupsys2 and libcupsimage2; between the
two that's 565k uncompressed size. Nothing else that I have installed
requires anything related to cups.
There's also the gs-gpl package which does not.
Doesn't include the ML-whatever OkiData driver for my IBM Personal
Computer Graphics Printer (the one pictured with the 'New' IBM PC in
history books).
Ah. Bit of a bummer that but considering that it's made by the same
folks as cups (check out its homepage) it's unsuprising that they would
make use of their own code if they felt the need to.
--
"To the extent that we overreact, we proffer the terrorists the
greatest tribute."
- High Court Judge Michael Kirby
Ron Johnson
2007-06-15 16:26:07 UTC
Permalink
On 06/15/07 08:05, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
[snip]
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
Doesn't include the ML-whatever OkiData driver for my IBM Personal
Computer Graphics Printer (the one pictured with the 'New' IBM PC in
history books).
Where do you keep getting ribbons for it?
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!
Douglas Allan Tutty
2007-06-15 23:49:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Campbell
[snip]
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
Doesn't include the ML-whatever OkiData driver for my IBM Personal
Computer Graphics Printer (the one pictured with the 'New' IBM PC in
history books).
Where do you keep getting ribbons for it?
The local office supply store. Standard full-width ribbon (not the
little jobs that hug the printhead).

The _only_ problem with the printer (and the reason that I don't
routinely print anything but plain-text) is that the little drive stick
that pokes up into the ribbon cartridge to rotate the ribbon has broken
off and replacements aren't available. The plastic its made of is
resistant to all glues (seems the same out of which they make glue-tube
caps). So to print anything, I have to stand there and twiddle the
ribbon's tentioning knob. Plain text goes a lot faster than graphics
(ps).

I have a laser and an inkjet printer but my wife has chemical
sensitivities and it takes a page 2 weeks to off-gas enough for her to
be able to read them; the dot-matrix is fine.

I'm always on the lookout for old hardware but so far people don't tend
to ditch dot-matrix until they are truely dead. The only people still
using them are business for multi-part forms.

I'd love to upgrade to a new 24-pin Epson.

Doug.
Ron Johnson
2007-06-16 01:42:38 UTC
Permalink
On 06/15/07 18:49, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
[snip]
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
I have a laser and an inkjet printer but my wife has chemical
sensitivities and it takes a page 2 weeks to off-gas enough for her to
be able to read them; the dot-matrix is fine.
99% of non-junk snail mail is laser printed/photocopied. How does
she read the mail?
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!
Douglas Allan Tutty
2007-06-16 01:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Johnson
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
I have a laser and an inkjet printer but my wife has chemical
sensitivities and it takes a page 2 weeks to off-gas enough for her to
be able to read them; the dot-matrix is fine.
99% of non-junk snail mail is laser printed/photocopied. How does
she read the mail?
She doesn't. I do.

The junk mail and 'free' newspapers don't even make it in the house but
go straight to the recycling bin. I'm sensitive to strong smells too
but not to the extent that Jane is.

Doug.
Anthony Campbell
2007-06-16 08:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by CaT
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
Could some of that problem be having aptitude treat recommends as
required?
Or something similar. I gave up on aptitude within a few minutes of
trying to use it during my upgrade to sarge. It completely refused to,
getting lost in a mess of its own design (or so it seemed). apt-get just
did as it was told and no more and it all went smoothly.
[snip]

I gave up on aptitude long ago because it kept trying, and sometimes
succeeding, to remove lots of things it shouldn't. I now use apt-get
via wajig, which seems to be one of the best-kept Linux secrets.
--
Anthony Campbell - ***@acampbell.org.uk
Microsoft-free zone - Using Linux Gnu-Debian
http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews,
on-line books and sceptical articles)
CaT
2007-06-18 06:17:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Campbell
I gave up on aptitude long ago because it kept trying, and sometimes
succeeding, to remove lots of things it shouldn't. I now use apt-get
via wajig, which seems to be one of the best-kept Linux secrets.
Interesting. I'll try to remember to use it just to see what it's like,
thoguh I've found one thing about it that I don't. No command should
ever spit out usage information, except a single line on how to find
usage on an error. :/
--
"To the extent that we overreact, we proffer the terrorists the
greatest tribute."
- High Court Judge Michael Kirby
Daniel Burrows
2007-06-15 13:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Allan Tutty
Post by CaT
Post by John Hasler
Post by s. keeling
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ aptitude -s install foomatic-gui
...
lprng
toncho/~ sudo apt-get -s install foomatic-gui
Thank you. At least someone figured out that there was a reason why one
might want to try apt-get instead. Aptitude, imo, tries too hard to err
on the side of the completely clueless user.
Could some of that problem be having aptitude treat recommends as
required?
aptitude is just doing what the package dependencies tell it to do.

foomatic-gui Depends: python-gnome2-extras
python-gnome2-extras Depends: python-gnome2-desktop
python-gnome2-desktop Depends: libgtksourceview1.0-0
libgtksourceview1.0-0 Depends: libgnomeprint2.2-0
libgnomeprint2.2-0 Recommends: cupsys

If you think this is inappropriate, I suggest you file a bug on
libgnomeprint2.2-0.

Daniel
s. keeling
2007-06-15 01:58:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hasler
Post by s. keeling
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ aptitude -s install foomatic-gui
...
lprng
toncho/~ sudo apt-get -s install foomatic-gui
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
foomatic-db foomatic-db-engine foomatic-filters python-foomatic
python-glade2 python-gobject python-gtk2
[schnip]
Post by s. keeling
No wonder it wanted to pull in 145 packages: you're a text mode
octogenarian!
I prefer the term "text mode junkie", thank you very much! :-)
Post by John Hasler
No. He's a cocky young whippersnapper.
High praise, if perhaps over stated.

No, I'm not young, but I may still be a whippersnapper. "Angry young
man" may still apply, assuming certain linguistic and chronological
liberalities.
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
s. keeling
2007-06-15 16:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hasler
Post by s. keeling
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ aptitude -s install foomatic-gui
...
lprng
toncho/~ sudo apt-get -s install foomatic-gui
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
foomatic-db foomatic-db-engine foomatic-filters python-foomatic python-glade2 python-gobject python-gtk2
python-ipy
Well, I guess my system must be broken in some way, though I fail to
understand why it works so well if it's broken. At least apt-get
doesn't try to blow away lprng:

-------------------------------------
(100) heretic [root] /root_ apt-get -s install foomatic-gui
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
cpp cpp-4.1 esound-common gconf2 gconf2-common gksu gnome-keyring gnome-media-common
gnome-mime-data libart-2.0-2 libaspell15 libaudiofile0 libavahi-client3
libavahi-common-data libavahi-common3 libavahi-glib1 libbonobo2-0 libbonobo2-common
libbonoboui2-0 libbonoboui2-common libdbus-glib-1-2 libesd0 libfam0 libgail-common
libgail17 libgconf2-4 libgda2-3 libgda2-common libgdl-1-0 libgdl-1-common libgksu1.2-0
libgksu2-0 libgksuui1.0-1 libgnome-keyring0 libgnome-media0 libgnome2-0
libgnome2-common libgnomecanvas2-0 libgnomecanvas2-common libgnomecups1.0-1
libgnomeprint2.2-0 libgnomeprint2.2-data libgnomeprintui2.2-0
libgnomeprintui2.2-common libgnomeui-0 libgnomeui-common libgnomevfs2-0
libgnomevfs2-common libgtkhtml2-0 libgtksourceview-common libgtksourceview1.0-0
libgtkspell0 libgtop2-7 libgtop2-common libhal-storage1 libidl0 libmetacity0
libmozjs0d libnautilus-burn3 liborbit2 libpanel-applet2-0 libtotem-plparser1
libwnck-common libwnck18 libxres1 libxul-common libxul0d metacity-common python-cairo
python-glade2 python-gnome2 python-gnome2-desktop python-gnome2-extras python-gtk2
python-numeric python-pyorbit sgml-base shared-mime-info sudo
Suggested packages:
cpp-doc gcc-4.1-locales aspell esound gda2-mysql gda2-postgres gda2-odbc gda2-sqlite
gda2-freetds desktop-base libgnomevfs2-bin python-gnome2-desktop-doc
python-gnome2-extras-doc python-numeric-tutorial sgml-base-doc
Recommended packages:
pconf-detect nmap smbclient gnome-media aspell-en aspell-dictionary
aspell6a-dictionary esound-clients fam libgda2-bin cupsys gnome-icon-theme
libgnomevfs2-extra
-------------------------------------
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
Ron Johnson
2007-06-15 17:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by s. keeling
Post by John Hasler
Post by s. keeling
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ aptitude -s install foomatic-gui
...
lprng
toncho/~ sudo apt-get -s install foomatic-gui
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
foomatic-db foomatic-db-engine foomatic-filters python-foomatic python-glade2 python-gobject python-gtk2
python-ipy
Well, I guess my system must be broken in some way, though I fail to
understand why it works so well if it's broken. At least apt-get
-------------------------------------
(100) heretic [root] /root_ apt-get -s install foomatic-gui
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
cpp cpp-4.1 esound-common gconf2 gconf2-common gksu gnome-keyring gnome-media-common
gnome-mime-data libart-2.0-2 libaspell15 libaudiofile0 libavahi-client3
libavahi-common-data libavahi-common3 libavahi-glib1 libbonobo2-0 libbonobo2-common
[snip]

foomatic-gui is a very high-level python GNOME app. You don't have
any GNOME libraries installed, so no wonder you've got to pulling in
the world.

BTW, did you watch /Red Green/ last night?
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!
John Hasler
2007-06-15 17:26:01 UTC
Permalink
foomatic-gui is a very high-level python GNOME app. You don't have any
GNOME libraries installed, so no wonder you've got to pulling in the
world.
It doesn't try to pull in all that stuff here.
--
John Hasler
Ron Johnson
2007-06-15 18:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hasler
foomatic-gui is a very high-level python GNOME app. You don't have any
GNOME libraries installed, so no wonder you've got to pulling in the
world.
It doesn't try to pull in all that stuff here.
Maybe apt hates Canadians.
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!
s. keeling
2007-06-15 18:12:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Johnson
Post by s. keeling
Well, I guess my system must be broken in some way, though I fail to
understand why it works so well if it's broken. At least apt-get
foomatic-gui is a very high-level python GNOME app. You don't have
any GNOME libraries installed, so no wonder you've got to pulling in
I guess. I still suspect something's wonky in the package system.
Eg., "aptitude show debsecan":

Recommends: cron, exim4 | mail-transport-agent

Shouldn't all this printer related stuff have something like that
mail-transport-agent target, but for printing? I suspect this is why
all the warfare between cupsys and its alternatives is happening.

While we're at it, maybe we (well, I) need null-gnome, null-kde, ...
placeholder targets to fool them into thinking they're there when
they're not. If null-gnome is provided by fluxbox or xserver-xorg,
there'd be no need for a relationship between (eg.) xscreensaver and
gnome, et al.
Post by Ron Johnson
BTW, did you watch /Red Green/ last night?
He must be on the Communist Broadcorping Castration network. It and I
manage to avoid each other, mostly. How 'bout you? Cheering for
Paris Hilton? :-P
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
Ron Johnson
2007-06-15 18:40:57 UTC
Permalink
On 06/15/07 13:12, s. keeling wrote:
[snip]
Post by s. keeling
He must be on the Communist Broadcorping Castration network. It and I
manage to avoid each other, mostly.
You can deny all you want, but I know that you watch it on your PVR.
Post by s. keeling
How 'bout you? Cheering for
Paris Hilton? :-P
Why would a big corporation put a big hotel in a tiny Idaho town?
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!
Florian Kulzer
2007-06-15 21:52:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Jun 15, 2007 at 18:12:32 +0000, s. keeling wrote:

[...]
Post by s. keeling
While we're at it, maybe we (well, I) need null-gnome, null-kde, ...
placeholder targets to fool them into thinking they're there when
they're not. If null-gnome is provided by fluxbox or xserver-xorg,
there'd be no need for a relationship between (eg.) xscreensaver and
gnome, et al.
You can circumvent the dependency checks if you really want to:

apt-cache show equivs
--
Regards, | http://users.icfo.es/Florian.Kulzer
Florian |
John Hasler
2007-06-15 17:18:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by s. keeling
Well, I guess my system must be broken in some way, though I fail to
understand why it works so well if it's broken. At least apt-get doesn't
There is still something odd here. I don't have most of those packages
installed (I don't use a "desktop environment") but apt is not trying to
install them.
--
John Hasler
s. keeling
2007-06-15 18:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hasler
Post by s. keeling
Well, I guess my system must be broken in some way, though I fail to
understand why it works so well if it's broken. At least apt-get doesn't
There is still something odd here. I don't have most of those packages
installed (I don't use a "desktop environment") but apt is not trying to
install them.
I suspect it may have something to do with some of the stuff "aptitude
-R install foomatic-filters-ppds" did. I'd never tried using that
switch before:

-------------------------------------------
The following packages are unused and will be REMOVED:
bsh cpp cpp-4.1 dbus discover1 discover1-data gcj-4.1-base gij gij-4.1
hicolor-icon-theme libatk1.0-data libdiscover1 libft-perl libgcj-bc libgcj-common
libgcj7-0 libgcj7-awt libgcj7-jar libglade2-0 libglib2.0-data libgtk2.0-bin
libjaxp1.3-java libjline-java libjpeg-progs libpaper-utils libttf2 libxalan2-java
libxerces2-java libxprintapputil1 libxprintutil1 libxt-java libxxf86misc1 mdetect
myspell-en-us openoffice.org-java-common psfontmgr sgml-base x-ttcidfont-conf
xfonts-base xfonts-utils xli xml-core xprint-utils xresprobe xscreensaver xutils
xutils-dev
The following NEW packages will be automatically installed:
hpijs hpijs-ppds libsensors3 libsnmp-base libsnmp9 libsysfs2
The following NEW packages will be installed:
foomatic-filters-ppds hpijs hpijs-ppds libsensors3 libsnmp-base libsnmp9 libsysfs2
The following packages are RECOMMENDED but will NOT be installed:
cupsys
-------------------------------------------
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
Daniel Burrows
2007-06-16 04:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by s. keeling
Post by John Hasler
Post by s. keeling
Well, I guess my system must be broken in some way, though I fail to
understand why it works so well if it's broken. At least apt-get doesn't
There is still something odd here. I don't have most of those packages
installed (I don't use a "desktop environment") but apt is not trying to
install them.
I suspect it may have something to do with some of the stuff "aptitude
-R install foomatic-filters-ppds" did. I'd never tried using that
NB: passing -R in old aptitudes will remove anything that was
previously installed because of a recommendation. It's probably
not a good idea unless you really want to do that. (in this case
"old" means "prior to the unreleased packages sitting on my hard
drive"...)

Newer (unreleased) aptitudes just don't install new recommendations
when they get -R; existing packages are left alone. (the old behavior
should be available if you pass '-o Aptitude::Recommends-Important=false')

Daniel
s. keeling
2007-06-16 21:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Burrows
Post by s. keeling
Post by John Hasler
There is still something odd here. I don't have most of those packages
installed (I don't use a "desktop environment") but apt is not trying to
I suspect it may have something to do with some of the stuff "aptitude
-R install foomatic-filters-ppds" did. I'd never tried using that
NB: passing -R in old aptitudes will remove anything that was
previously installed because of a recommendation. It's probably
Thanks for the clarification. I suppose I should report a bug on the
manpage:

-R Do not treat recommendations as dependencies when installing new
packages

It says nothing about removing stuff that's already here.
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Please don't Cc: me.
- -
Douglas Allan Tutty
2007-06-16 23:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by s. keeling
Post by Daniel Burrows
Post by s. keeling
Post by John Hasler
There is still something odd here. I don't have most of those packages
installed (I don't use a "desktop environment") but apt is not trying to
I suspect it may have something to do with some of the stuff "aptitude
-R install foomatic-filters-ppds" did. I'd never tried using that
NB: passing -R in old aptitudes will remove anything that was
previously installed because of a recommendation. It's probably
Thanks for the clarification. I suppose I should report a bug on the
-R Do not treat recommendations as dependencies when installing new
packages
It says nothing about removing stuff that's already here.
What if until you pass the -R you had been having aptitude include
recommends as automatic installs. You haven't since gone and marked the
ones you want to keep as manually installed. Now you tell it to not
include recommends; it will re-evaluate the dependancies and mark for
automatic removal of packages that are marked automatic but that were
only installed to meet recommended dependancies.

Where's the bug. Its doing _exactly_ what you asked. If you want more
control, run the program without any parameters and set your options
from there and see what it wants to do. Tweak as necessary before you
tell it to 'g'o ahead.

Doug.
s. keeling
2007-06-15 01:45:36 UTC
Permalink
[copious output snipped]
I rest my case.
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1pl1 (Debian)
No wonder it wanted to pull in 145 packages: you're a text mode
octogenarian! You're probably also running NetBSD on a VAX 11/785.
You hoser.
Those of us not pining away for a VT101 on our desks already have
the needed dependencies installed.
Not wanting to run Gnome/KDE/CUPS means I'm pining for vt101? Where
have you been hiding for the last decade?

There's plenty of wm's available from Debian which don't have anything
to do with Qt or Gtk. Ignorance is bliss, so I hear. :-)

Que pasa?
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
Ron Johnson
2007-06-15 02:58:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by s. keeling
[copious output snipped]
I rest my case.
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1pl1 (Debian)
No wonder it wanted to pull in 145 packages: you're a text mode
octogenarian! You're probably also running NetBSD on a VAX 11/785.
You hoser.
Not a chance. We drink Abita down here, not Molson, and most
certainly do *not* watch /The Red Green Show/!!!

Speak of Our Gentle Friends Of The North, the funniest Wikipedia
article I've read is..... Anti-Canadianism.
Post by s. keeling
Those of us not pining away for a VT101 on our desks already have
the needed dependencies installed.
Not wanting to run Gnome/KDE/CUPS means I'm pining for vt101? Where
have you been hiding for the last decade?
There's plenty of wm's available from Debian which don't have anything
to do with Qt or Gtk. Ignorance is bliss, so I hear. :-)
You must be happy! :P
Post by s. keeling
Que pasa?
Working hard. About to go on vacation...
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!
Ron Johnson
2007-06-14 22:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by s. keeling
Post by Florian Kulzer
Post by s. keeling
Damned near
everything drags in CUPS. I already had lprng installed, and
foomatic-* wanted to remove it and install CUPS. Should I just
Is it really that bad as far as CUPS is concerned? I have stable,
---------------------------------------
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ aptitude show foomatic-gui
Package: foomatic-gui
State: not installed
Version: 0.7.7
Priority: optional
Section: gnome
Uncompressed Size: 258k
Depends: python, python-foomatic (>= 0.7.7), python-gtk2 (> 2.6), python-gnome2,
python-glade2, gksu, python-gnome2-extras
Recommends: netcat, pconf-detect, nmap, smbclient
...
---------------------------------------
Note, I have python-foomatic installed. I don't see cupsys in there
anywhere.
---------------------------------------
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ aptitude -s install foomatic-gui
...
lprng
aspell aspell-en binutils cpp cpp-4.1 cupsys cupsys-bsd cupsys-client cupsys-common
esound-clients esound-common fam foomatic-gui gcc gcc-4.1 gconf2 gconf2-common gksu
[snip]
Post by s. keeling
pkg-config poppler-utils python-cairo python-glade2 python-gnome2
python-gnome2-desktop python-gnome2-extras python-gtk2 python-numeric
python-pyorbit samba-common sgml-base shared-mime-info smbclient sudo tdb-dev
lprng
0 packages upgraded, 145 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 17.7MB/57.0MB of archives. After unpacking 201MB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] n
---------------------------------------
I rest my case.
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1pl1 (Debian)

No wonder it wanted to pull in 145 packages: you're a text mode
octogenarian! You're probably also running NetBSD on a VAX 11/785.

Those of us not pining away for a VT101 on our desks already have
the needed dependencies installed.
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!
s. keeling
2007-06-14 22:22:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Florian Kulzer
OK, I see, libgtk2.0-0 might be difficult to avoid on a desktop system
and it depends on libcupsys2 in Lenny and Sid. However, the foomatic-*
packages do not seem to depend on any CUPS packages. foomatic-filters
and foomatic-filters-ppds both recommend cupsys, but that should only be
a problem if you have told your package manager to install recommended
packages automatically.
I lied (about resting my case), sorry. I do have libgtk2.0-0 and
libgtk2.0-common installed, which I don't consider a problem.
"aptitude upgrade" runs clean without trying to drag anything else
in. Fine. Small price to pay.

No, I haven't done anything to apt.conf, and this is a system
installed with Desktop Environment de-selected on install.

If I were paranoid, I'd be suspicious somebody slipped a DD a bribe. :-P
CUPS is beginning to look like the crapware that pays to get installed
on Windows machines. I can see no reason for it when lpr(ng) is quite
capable of doing the job in its place.

Honest, I'm trying not to whine :-P, and I really am grateful I've
such a great, clean system. I'd just like to keep it that way, and
the packaging system+CUPS+Gnome are not helping. Fluxbox is a
perfectly good wm, and lprng is a perfectly good spooler. Why CUPS is
continually after its ass is puzzling (not to mention infuriating).
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
JWS
2007-06-14 15:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by s. keeling
So, perhaps ca. two thousand, six hundred, and ninety five files
which have nothing to do with my printer? At least they're all
gzipped ...
Astonishing. I've never understood the reason for having CUPS at
all (being a happy lprng user) but I had no idea it was *this*
bad. Surely at least the package maintainer should have realised
that something absurd was going on?
Post by s. keeling
Post by s. keeling
...
Considering all the confusion and myriad pleas from people
trying to get CUPS working on their systems, should we really
be going down this road? CUPS has made a mess of printer
configuration.
Agreed. We do not have a "user vote" system in Debian, but if we
had one, my vote would be to remove all dependencies from packages
that tend to make CUPS the default print system. I've posted about
this before..

Regards, Jan
Andrew Sackville-West
2007-06-14 17:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by JWS
Post by s. keeling
So, perhaps ca. two thousand, six hundred, and ninety five files
which have nothing to do with my printer? At least they're all
gzipped ...
Astonishing. I've never understood the reason for having CUPS at
all (being a happy lprng user) but I had no idea it was *this*
bad. Surely at least the package maintainer should have realised
that something absurd was going on?
Post by s. keeling
Post by s. keeling
...
Considering all the confusion and myriad pleas from people
trying to get CUPS working on their systems, should we really
be going down this road? CUPS has made a mess of printer
configuration.
Agreed. We do not have a "user vote" system in Debian, but if we
had one, my vote would be to remove all dependencies from packages
that tend to make CUPS the default print system. I've posted about
this before..
you can use popcon so that at least you can "vote" for others besides
CUPS. And i suppose you could file wishlist bugs against packages that
unnecessarily depend on CUPS. They could change the dependencies so
that (and it may already exist) any one of cups, lprng etc. "provides"
"printing system" .


.02

A
s. keeling
2007-06-14 17:35:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by JWS
Post by s. keeling
So, perhaps ca. two thousand, six hundred, and ninety five files
which have nothing to do with my printer? At least they're all
Astonishing. I've never understood the reason for having CUPS at
I've never liked it from the first time I saw it. It's just so
un-*nix like, it makes my blood boil.
Post by JWS
Post by s. keeling
Post by s. keeling
be going down this road? CUPS has made a mess of printer
configuration.
Agreed. We do not have a "user vote" system in Debian, but if we
We do. It's called popcon. However, I suspect the results are
heavily weighted in favour of the *buntu crowd.
Post by JWS
had one, my vote would be to remove all dependencies from packages
that tend to make CUPS the default print system. I've posted about
I still think we need something along the lines of
"--prefers-subsystem=blah". I'm very thankful that I can still get a
system that's not loaded down with Desktop Environment stuff I don't
want, and instead manually haul in what I prefer. However, it's
extremely difficult to keep it that way when any random "aptitude
install" wants to drag in stuff I don't want, replacing what I went
out of my way to get.
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
Larry Irwin
2007-06-14 18:10:40 UTC
Permalink
I've got about 300 servers out there using lprng.
My 1st run-in with cups gave me some surprises.
1) Removing cups generally removes X, desktop, etc...
2) lpstat no longer works (at least in the same manner, depending on the
flavor of Linux)...
3) Manual intervention into cups setup tends to get overwritten on every
re-boot. (didn't take time to figure this one out...)
I have about 500 users at client sites that know how to use my scripts that
manage lprng.
So, with lprng, I don't have to have technical people involved in setting up
and/or maintaining printers.
To implement a change from lprng to cups would involve weeks of development
and months of implementation.
So! If you want lprng... - after a fresh install of linux:
1) Stop the cups processes:
for i in /etc/init.d/cups*; do; $i stop; done
2) Edit the init scripts for cups and add the line "exit 0" at the top of
each one, effectively disabling cups.
vi /etc/init.d/cups*
3) install lprng
4) install your home-grown lprng management tools.
Enjoy!
Larry Irwin
s. keeling
2007-06-14 21:53:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Irwin
I've got about 300 servers out there using lprng.
My 1st run-in with cups gave me some surprises.
1) Removing cups generally removes X, desktop, etc...
That's one of the best reasons I can think of for not installing it in
the first place.
Post by Larry Irwin
for i in /etc/init.d/cups*; do; $i stop; done
2) Edit the init scripts for cups and add the line "exit 0" at the top of
each one, effectively disabling cups.
vi /etc/init.d/cups*
3) install lprng
4) install your home-grown lprng management tools.
So, in other words, Debian sans CUPS isn't possible. You may not have
to actually run it, but you have to have it installed. That's
ridiculous. This is viral software.
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
Ron Johnson
2007-06-14 22:10:24 UTC
Permalink
On 06/14/07 16:53, s. keeling wrote:
[snip]
Post by s. keeling
So, in other words, Debian sans CUPS isn't possible. You may not have
to actually run it, but you have to have it installed. That's
ridiculous. This is viral software.
Start filing bugs against the deep-level dependers. apt-rdepends is
your friend.
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!
John Hasler
2007-06-14 22:41:01 UTC
Permalink
So, in other words, Debian sans CUPS isn't possible. You may not have to
actually run it, but you have to have it installed.
I guess I'm not running Debian:

toncho/~ sudo apt-get -s remove cupsys-client
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Package cupsys-client is not installed, so not removed
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 575 not upgraded.
toncho/~ sudo apt-get -s remove cupsys
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Package cupsys is not installed, so not removed
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 575 not upgraded.
toncho/~ sudo apt-get -s remove cupsys-common
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Package cupsys-common is not installed, so not removed


On the other hand, it is, um, "surprising" what depends on libcupsys2:

toncho/~ apt-cache rdepends libcupsys2
libcupsys2
Reverse Depends:
kdelibs-bin
kdelibs4
libgtk2.0-0
libgnomeprint2.2-0
kdelibs4c2
kdelibs4c2a
acroread
libgtk2.0-0
xpp
xfprint4
swat
scribus-ng
scribus
samba
rezound
python-cups
netatalk
libmono-system2.0-cil
libmono-system1.0-cil
libgtk2.0-0
libgnomeprint2.2-0
libgnomecupsui1.0-1c2a
libgnomecups1.0-1
libfox1.4
libfox-1.6-0
libcupsys2-dev
libcupsimage2
libcupsimage2
kdelibs4c2a
katoob
hplip
gtklp
gs-esp
gnustep-gui-runtime
gnome-cups-manager
cupsys-pt
cupsys-driver-gutenprint
cupsys-dbg
cupsys-client
cupsys-bsd
cupsys
--
John Hasler
Daniel Burrows
2007-06-15 04:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by s. keeling
Post by Larry Irwin
for i in /etc/init.d/cups*; do; $i stop; done
2) Edit the init scripts for cups and add the line "exit 0" at the top of
each one, effectively disabling cups.
vi /etc/init.d/cups*
3) install lprng
4) install your home-grown lprng management tools.
So, in other words, Debian sans CUPS isn't possible. You may not have
to actually run it, but you have to have it installed. That's
ridiculous. This is viral software.
There are four packages that depend on the cups server:

bluez-cups
cupsys-driver-gutenprint
hplip
printconf

None of these are essential to the system, or even to the GUI.

Daniel
Jan Willem Stumpel
2007-06-15 15:42:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by s. keeling
So, in other words, Debian sans CUPS isn't possible. You may
not have to actually run it, but you have to have it installed.
That's ridiculous. This is viral software.
True. Unfortunately this virus has already spread widely.. At
least 144 packages which do not really need cups (because anything
that prints can do so without cups) have been made dependent on it
in Debian. I rest my case as well. This case is even clearer than
yours, because Debian threatens to remove packages here, not
install them. Is there a cure? Could some of the "higher
management" in Debian explain what is going on here?

vega:/home/jws# apt-get remove libcupsys2

Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
The following packages will be REMOVED
abiword afterstep amule amule-utils-gui aterm audacity azureus
bittornado-gui choosewm digikam drgeo driconf ed2k-gtk-gui
firefox flashplugin-nonfree fluxconf gamix gimp glade
gnome-keyring gs-esp gstreamer0.10-plugins-good gtk-gnutella
gtk-theme-switch gtk2-engines gtk2-engines-pixbuf
gtk2-engines-xfce gtkam gucharmap iceape iceape-browser
iceape-mailnews icedove kdebase-bin kdebase-kio-plugins
kdelibs4c2a kdesktop leafpad libafterimage0 libafterstep1
libbonoboui2-0 libcupsimage2 libcupsys2 libcupsys2-dev
libexif-gtk5 libexo-0.3-0 libgail-common libgail17 libgail18
libgdk-pixbuf2-ruby libgdk-pixbuf2-ruby1.8 libgimp2.0
libgksuui1.0-1 libglade2-0 libglade2-dev libglademm-2.4-1c2a
libglademm-2.4-dev libgladeui-1-5 libgnome-keyring-dev
libgnome-keyring0 libgnomecanvas2-0 libgnomecanvas2-dev
libgnomecups1.0-1 libgnomeprint2.2-0 libgnomeprintui2.2-0
libgnomeui-0 libgtk2.0-0 libgtk2.0-bin libgtk2.0-dev
libgtkmm-2.4-1c2a libgtkmm-2.4-dev libgtksourceview1.0-0
libgtkspell0 libgucharmap6 libkdcraw-runtime libkdcraw0
libkexif1 libkexiv2-1 libkipi0 libkonq4 libmetacity0
libnautilus-burn3 libnotify1 libpoppler0c2-glib
libqt3-mt-dev librsvg2-2 libscim8c2a libswt-gtk-3.1-java
libswt-gtk-3.1-jni libswt-gtk-3.2-java libswt-gtk-3.2-jni
libthunar-vfs-1-2 libwmf0.2-7 libwnck18 libwxgtk2.6-0
libxfcegui4-4 libxine1 libxine1-ffmpeg libxul0d mlterm
mlterm-tools mousepad mozilla-mplayer mozilla-thunderbird
mplayer mplayer-skin-blue obconf openoffice.org-calc
openoffice.org-core openoffice.org-draw
openoffice.org-filter-binfilter openoffice.org-impress
openoffice.org-math openoffice.org-writer pan python-gtk2
python-uno python-wxgtk2.6 quicktime-x11utils rapidsvn rox-filer
samba scim scim-modules-socket sgt-puzzles showimg sodipodi
streamtuner subtitleeditor thunar thunderbird uim uim-gtk2.0
uim-xim xaralx xcdroast xfce4-mcs-manager xfce4-netload-plugin
xfce4-panel xfce4-session xfce4-utils xfdesktop4 xfwm4
xine-ui xmms-xmmplayer xscreensaver xsensors
The following held packages will be changed:
firefox
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 147 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
Need to get 0B of archives.
After unpacking 650MB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]?

Regards, Jan
s. keeling
2007-06-15 16:43:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Willem Stumpel
Post by s. keeling
So, in other words, Debian sans CUPS isn't possible. You may
not have to actually run it, but you have to have it installed.
That's ridiculous. This is viral software.
True. Unfortunately this virus has already spread widely.. At
least 144 packages which do not really need cups (because anything
Ugh. The list of stuff it wants to get rid of is just weird.
Audacity, Azureus, Bittornado-gui, Mplayer, Xcdroast, Xscreensaver?!?

They're not even remotely related to printing. Here's another:

--------------------------------------------
(0) heretic /home/keeling_ apt-cache rdepends xscreensaver
xscreensaver
Reverse Depends:
xscreensaver-gl
xscreensaver-gl
xautolock
|rss-glx
kscreensaver-xsavers
junior-toys
|hibernate
gnome
gnome
gkrellshoot
afterstep
gnome-control-center
--------------------------------------------

There is no Gnome or KDE on this thing, yet xscreensaver works just as
it always has.
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
John Hasler
2007-06-15 17:23:24 UTC
Permalink
There is no Gnome or KDE on this thing, yet xscreensaver works just as it
always has.
And why wouldn't it? It doesn't depend on any Gnome or KDE stuff.
--
John Hasler
s. keeling
2007-06-15 18:27:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hasler
There is no Gnome or KDE on this thing, yet xscreensaver works just as it
always has.
And why wouldn't it? It doesn't depend on any Gnome or KDE stuff.
That's what I'm saying. It doesn't need them. I also see there's an
xscreensaver-nognome virtual package. I wonder if that can help sort
out some of this nonsense.
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.
John Hasler
2007-06-15 21:19:24 UTC
Permalink
There is no Gnome or KDE on this thing, yet xscreensaver works just as it
always has.
And why wouldn't it? It doesn't depend on any Gnome or KDE stuff.
That's what I'm saying. It doesn't need them. I also see there's an
xscreensaver-nognome virtual package. I wonder if that can help sort
out some of this nonsense.
You listed xscreensaver's reverse-depends. Those are packages that depend
on it.
--
John Hasler
Jan Willem Stumpel
2007-06-15 18:44:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by s. keeling
Ugh. The list of stuff it wants to get rid of is just weird.
Audacity, Azureus, Bittornado-gui, Mplayer, Xcdroast,
Xscreensaver?!?
It is indeed incredible that some packages that do not even print
(you were wrong about audacity BTW, because it *can* print -- but
you could have mentioned sgt-puzzles, for instance) pull in
libcupsys2. And of course even packages that *do* print do not
need cups per se. The dependency should be upon something like
"some print system", rather than on cups, and there should be no
such dependency at all for non-printing packages.

I suspect some developers have been too generous in assigning
dependencies to some packages -- especially library packages. Or
else, perhaps there really is some kind of virus messing up the
Debian package system.. Anyway I think the dependencies ought to
be looked at very critically, and when possible cleaned up. Are
any developers listening?

Regards, Jan
John Hasler
2007-06-15 21:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Willem Stumpel
I suspect some developers have been too generous in assigning
dependencies to some packages -- especially library packages.
It's upstream that decides to link to the libraries.
Post by Jan Willem Stumpel
Anyway I think the dependencies ought to be looked at very critically,
and when possible cleaned up. Are any developers listening?
File bugs (I don't mean that sarcastically).
--
John Hasler
Michelle Konzack
2007-06-20 14:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hasler
Post by Jan Willem Stumpel
I suspect some developers have been too generous in assigning
dependencies to some packages -- especially library packages.
It's upstream that decides to link to the libraries.
But Debian-Maintainers CAN change the "Depends:" to "Recommends:" and if
some crappy software output errormessages thet it cannot find libcupsys2
the the software is definitivly bad designed sind it can check whether
a lib is availlable and THEN load it.
Post by John Hasler
Post by Jan Willem Stumpel
Anyway I think the dependencies ought to be looked at very critically,
and when possible cleaned up. Are any developers listening?
File bugs (I don't mean that sarcastically).
Done, against Katoob and Samba.

Note: Those two programs push 38 MByte additional packages onto my
systems, while my selfbuild (from the Debian-Sources) are
working without any problems IF compiled --without-cupsys.

Katoob is no problem, but Samba enforce the loading of libcupsys, so it
has to patched if wou want to leave libcupsys2 linked but it is not
availlabel.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
0033/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
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