Discussion:
Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
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maderios
2014-12-02 09:47:19 UTC
Permalink
Hi guys
Not for me but interesting.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTg1MDQ
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Maderios
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Ric Moore
2014-12-02 19:14:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by maderios
Hi guys
Not for me but interesting.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTg1MDQ
"# More about the vision

This is just a start, as bold as it sounds to call it fork, at a
process that will unfold in time and involve more people, first to
import and change Debian packages and later on to maintain them under
a separate course. To help with this adventure and its growth, we ask
you all to get involved, but also to donate money so that we can cover
the costs of setting the new infrastructure in place.
https://devuan.org/donate.html "

So kiddies, be sure to send in your checks and money orders so you can
all put your money where your mouth is. <cackles> Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
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Märk Owen
2014-12-02 20:40:20 UTC
Permalink
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On Tue, 02 Dec 2014 10:47:19 +0100
Post by maderios
Hi guys
Not for me but interesting.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTg1MDQ
It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
this way.

These guys should have kept working on Debian and made sure every
package is compatible with whichever init system we choose.

Too bad, it won't happen. DI doubt very much that Devuan will last.
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Aaron Toponce
2014-12-02 21:22:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Märk Owen
It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
this way.
# apt-get install upstart
# apt-get install sysvinit-core
# apt-get install openrc

No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.
--
. o . o . o . . o o . . . o .
. . o . o o o . o . o o . . o
o o o . o . . o o o o . o o o
Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
2014-12-02 21:47:38 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
Post by Aaron Toponce
Post by Märk Owen
It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
this way.
# apt-get install upstart
# apt-get install sysvinit-core
# apt-get install openrc
No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.
Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory..."

Cheers,

Ron.
--
To delight in war is a merit in the soldier,
a dangerous quality in the captain,
and a positive crime in the statesman.
-- George Santayana

-- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
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Martin Steigerwald
2014-12-02 22:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
Post by Aaron Toponce
Post by Märk Owen
It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
this way.
# apt-get install upstart
# apt-get install sysvinit-core
# apt-get install openrc
No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.
Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after Jessie,
when systemd may well become compulsory..."
Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable
without having any systemd related package installed.

I.e. making:

merkaba:~> LANG=C apt-get purge systemd
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer
required:
amor analitza-common blinken cantor cantor-backend-kalgebra filelight
kaccessible kalgebra kalgebra-common kalzium kalzium-data kanagram
kbruch kcharselect kcolorchooser kde-config-cron kde-icons-mono
kdeaccessibility kdeadmin kdeartwork kdeartwork-style
kdeartwork-theme-window kdeartwork-wallpapers kdeedu kdeedu-kvtml-data
kdegraphics kdegraphics-mobipocket kdegraphics-strigi-analyzer
kdegraphics-thumbnailers kdemultimedia kdenetwork kdenetwork-filesharing
kdetoys kdeutils kdf kgamma kgeography kgeography-data kgpg
khangman kig kiten klettres klettres-data kmag kmousetool kmplot
kolourpaint4 kppp krdc kremotecontrol krfb kruler ksaneplugin kscd kstars
kstars-data ksystemlog kteatime ktimer ktouch ktouch-data kturtle ktux kuser
kwordquiz libanalitza5abi1 libanalitzagui5abi1
libanalitzaplot5abi1 libkdeedu-data libkeduvocdocument4 libkiten4abi1 marble
pairs parley parley-data plasma-scriptengine-superkaramba
print-manager qtdeclarative4-kqtquickcharts-1 rocs step
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
colord* gvfs* gvfs-backends* gvfs-daemons* hplip* hplip-gui* k3b* k3b-i18n*
kde-full* kde-plasma-desktop* kde-plasma-netbook* kde-standard*
libpam-systemd* libvirt-daemon-system* network-manager* packagekit*
packagekit-tools* plasma-nm* plasma-widget-networkmanagement*
policykit-1* policykit-1-gnome* polkit-kde-1* printer-driver-postscript-hp*
systemd* systemd-ui* udisks2*
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 26 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
After this operation, 57.9 MB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n]

work.

And well systemd-shim and cgmanager *are* installed.

But that would be the bigger work… as it needs patching of upstream projects
*or* implementing the required functionality elsewhise.

Ciao,
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
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Erwan David
2014-12-03 07:35:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Steigerwald
Post by Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
Post by Aaron Toponce
Post by Märk Owen
It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
this way.
# apt-get install upstart
# apt-get install sysvinit-core
# apt-get install openrc
No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.
Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after Jessie,
when systemd may well become compulsory..."
Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable
without having any systemd related package installed.
The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to remove
systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all that logind
is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which showed it was
designed without any care for well known attacks.
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Martin Steigerwald
2014-12-03 09:18:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erwan David
Post by Martin Steigerwald
Post by Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
Post by Aaron Toponce
Post by Märk Owen
It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
this way.
# apt-get install upstart
# apt-get install sysvinit-core
# apt-get install openrc
No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.
Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after
Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory..."
Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable
without having any systemd related package installed.
The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to remove
systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all that logind
is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which showed it was
designed without any care for well known attacks.
I explicetely wrote "any systemd related package".

But yes, my example was incomplete. With all related packages it looks like
this:

merkaba:~> LANG=C apt-get purge libpam-systemd libsystemd-id128-0 libsystemd0
libsystemd0 systemd systemd-ui
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer
required:
abe-data analitza-common augeas-lenses bluez-obexd briquolo-data
calligrastage-data celestia-common colobot-common
colobot-common-sounds colobot-common-textures command-not-found
dreamchess-data ebtables epiphany-data extremetuxracer-data
extremetuxracer-extras ffmpegthumbs fonts-ebgaramond-extra
freedroid-data freedroidrpg-data frogatto-data gir1.2-vte-2.90
kalzium-data kde-config-cron kde-games-core-declarative
kde-icons-mono kde-thumbnailer-deb kdeartwork-style
kdeartwork-theme-window kdeartwork-wallpapers kdeedu-kvtml-data
kdegames-card-data kdegames-mahjongg-data kdegraphics-mobipocket
kdegraphics-strigi-analyzer kdegraphics-thumbnailers
kdenetwork-filesharing kdepim-mobileui-data kdesdk-strigi-plugins
kdesdk-thumbnailers kexi-data kgamma kgeography-data klettres-data
ksaneplugin kstars-data ktouch-data ktux lbreakout2-data
libakonadi-socialutils4 libakonadi-xml4 libalure1 libanalitza5abi1
libanalitzagui5abi1 libanalitzaplot5abi1 libapache-poi-java
libaugeas0 libbluedevil2 libboost-chrono1.55.0 libboost-signals1.55.0
libboost-wave1.55.0 libbulletcollision2.82 libbulletdynamics2.82
libcommons-codec-java libcomposereditorng4 libdataquay0
libdebconf-kde0 libdumb1 libechonest2.1 libfishsound1 libfox-1.6-0
libfreeimage3 libfs6 libftgl2 libgcj-bc libgeoclue0 libglee0d1
libgtkmm-3.0-1 libguess1 libgwengui-fox16-0 libgwengui-gtk2-0
libgwenhywfar60-dev libid3-3.8.3c2a libkasten2controllers2
libkasten2core2 libkasten2gui2 libkasten2okteta1controllers1abi1
libkasten2okteta1core1 libkasten2okteta1gui1 libkdeedu-data
libkdegames6abi1 libkdegamesprivate1abi1 libkeduvocdocument4
libkiten4abi1 libkmahjongglib4 libktoblzcheck1-dev liblinearmath2.82
liblo7 liblrdf0 liblsofui4 libmozjs185-1.0 libmxml1
libmygui.ogreplatform0debian1 libmyguiengine3debian1 libnetcf1
liboggz2 libogre-1.9.0 libokteta1core1 libokteta1gui1
libparted-fs-resize0 libphysfs1 libprojectm2 libqapt1
libqtgstreamerutils-0.10-0 libqxt-core0 libqxt-gui0 libraptor1
librubberband2 libsublime8 libswt-cairo-gtk-3-jni
libswt-glx-gtk-3-jni libswt-webkit-gtk-3-jni libunshield0
libusbredirhost1 libva-glx1 libvte-2.90-9 libvte-2.90-common
libxine2-bin libxine2-doc libxine2-ffmpeg libxml++2.6-2
libxmlbeans-java libxmp4 manaplus-data neverball-common
neverball-data oolite-data oolite-data-sounds oolite-doc openmw-data
p7zip pachi-data palapeli-data parley-data pbzip2 pinball-data
pingus-data pristine-tar projectm-data python-gdbm python-ipaddr
python-opengl python-pyside.qtdeclarative python-pyside.qtgui
python-pyside.qthelp python-pyside.qtnetwork python-pyside.qtopengl
python-pyside.qtscript python-pyside.qtsql python-pyside.qtsvg
python-pyside.qttest python-pyside.qtuitools python-pyside.qtwebkit
python-pyside.qtxml python-urlgrabber qtdeclarative4-kqtquickcharts-1
redshift scummvm-data supertux-data transcode-doc trophy-data
ttf-femkeklaver ttf-unifont twolame unmo3 x11-session-utils
x11-xfs-utils xinit
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
The following extra packages will be installed:
icedtea-6-jre-cacao icedtea-6-jre-jamvm libqt4-phonon
openjdk-6-jre-headless openjdk-6-jre-lib
Suggested packages:
sun-java6-fonts fonts-ipafont-gothic fonts-ipafont-mincho fonts-indic

[…apt-get busy with dependency calculation, eating 100% of one core …]

The following packages will be REMOVED:
abe* acpi-fakekey* adonthell* adonthell-data* akonadiconsole*
akregator* alien* alsaplayer-common* amarok* amor* ark* avahi-daemon*
baloo-dbg* baloo-utils* baloo4* bangarang* basic256* basket* blinken*
blogilo* bluedevil* bluetooth* bluez* bluez-cups* bomber* bovo*
braindump* briquolo* bsdmainutils* bsdutils* calligra*
calligra-l10n-de* calligra-libs* calligra-semanticitems*
calligraauthor* calligraflow* calligraplan* calligrasheets*
calligrastage* calligrawords* cantor* cantor-backend-kalgebra*
celestia-gnome* cervisia* clementine* colobot* colord* consolekit*
cups* cups-core-drivers* cups-daemon* cups-pk-helper* cvsservice*
dbus* dbus-1-dbg* dbus-x11* debconf-kde-helper* debhelper*
default-jre* default-jre-headless* dh-autoreconf* digikam*
digikam-doc* digikam-private-libs* dolphin* dragonplayer* dreamchess*
e17* epiphany* equivs* espeak* etherape* evolution*
evolution-data-server* evolution-plugins* extremetuxracer* filelight*
flare* flare-engine* flight-of-the-amazon-queen* fop* freedroid*
freedroidrpg* frogatto* frozen-bubble* fs-uae* fs-uae-arcade*
fs-uae-launcher* gconf2* gcr* gimp* gimp-gmic* gir1.2-gtk-vnc-2.0*
gir1.2-libvirt-glib-1.0* gir1.2-spice-client-glib-2.0*
gir1.2-spice-client-gtk-3.0* git-buildpackage* gksu* gnash-common*
gnome-keyring* gnome-session-bin* gnome-user-guide* granatier*
gstreamer0.10-gconf* gstreamer0.10-plugins-good*
gstreamer0.10-pulseaudio* gstreamer0.10-qapt*
gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad* gstreamer1.0-pulseaudio* gvfs*
gvfs-backends* gvfs-daemons* gwenview* hplip* hplip-gui*
icedtea-7-jre-jamvm* icedtea-7-plugin* icedtea-netx* inkscape*
javahelp2* jovie* juk* jxplorer* k3b* k3b-i18n* k4dirstat*
kaccessible* kaddressbook* kaffeine* kalarm* kalgebra*
kalgebra-common* kalzium* kanagram* kapman* kapptemplate* karbon*
kate* katomic* kblackbox* kblocks* kbounce* kbreakout* kbruch*
kcachegrind* kcalc* kcharselect* kcolorchooser* kde-baseapps*
kde-baseapps-bin* kde-config-cddb* kde-config-telepathy-accounts*
kde-full* kde-plasma-desktop* kde-plasma-netbook* kde-runtime*
kde-sc-dev-latest* kde-standard* kde-style-oxygen* kde-telepathy*
kde-telepathy-auth-handler* kde-telepathy-call-ui*
kde-telepathy-contact-list* kde-telepathy-declarative*
kde-telepathy-desktop-applets* kde-telepathy-filetransfer-handler*
kde-telepathy-integration-module* kde-telepathy-kpeople*
kde-telepathy-minimal* kde-telepathy-send-file*
kde-telepathy-text-ui* kde-window-manager* kde-workspace*
kde-workspace-bin* kde-workspace-dev* kdeaccessibility* kdeadmin*
kdeartwork* kdebase-apps* kdebase-runtime* kdeconnect* kdeedu*
kdegames* kdegraphics* kdelibs5-dev* kdelibs5-plugins* kdemultimedia*
kdenetwork* kdepasswd* kdepim* kdepim-dbg* kdepim-kresources*
kdepim-runtime* kdepim-runtime-dbg* kdepimlibs-dbg* kdepimlibs5-dev*
kdeplasma-addons* kdesdk* kdesdk-dolphin-plugins* kdesdk-kio-plugins*
kdesdk-misc* kdesudo* kdetoys* kdeutils* kdevelop* kdevelop-php*
kdevplatform8-libs* kdewebdev* kdf* kdiamond* kdm* kexi*
kfilereplace* kfind* kfourinline* kgeography* kget* kgoldrunner*
kgpg* khangman* khelpcenter4* kid3* kid3-core* kig* kigo* killbots*
kimagemapeditor* kinfocenter* kio-audiocd* kipi-plugins* kiriki*
kiten* kjots* kjumpingcube* kleopatra* klettres* klickety* klines*
klinkstatus* klipper* kmag* kmahjongg* kmail* kmenuedit* kmines*
kmix* kmousetool* kmouth* kmplot* kmtrace* kmymoney* knavalbattle*
knetwalk* knode* knotes* kolf* kollision* kolourpaint4* kommander*
kompare* konq-plugins* konqueror* konqueror-nsplugins* konquest*
konsole* konsolekalendar* kontact* konversation* kopete* korganizer*
kpartloader* kpat* kppp* krdc* kremotecontrol* krename* kreversi*
krfb* krita* kruler* kscd* kscreen* kscreensaver* kshisen* ksirk*
ksnapshot* kspaceduel* ksquares* kstars* ksudoku* ksysguard*
ksystemlog* kteatime* ktimer* ktimetracker* ktorrent* ktouch* ktron*
ktuberling* kturtle* kubrick* kuiviewer* kuser* kwalletmanager*
kwordquiz* kwrite* lbreakout2* libakonadi-calendar4*
libakonadi-contact4* libaqbanking34-dev* libasound2-plugins*
libav-tools* libavdevice55* libbonoboui2-0* libcalendarsupport4*
libclanapp-1.0* libespeak1* libeventviews4* libfarstream-0.1-0*
libfarstream-0.2-2* libfluidsynth1* libfreerdp-plugins-standard*
libgegl-0.2-0* libgksu2-0* libgnome-2-0* libgnome2-0* libgnome2-bin*
libgnome2-common* libgnomeui-0* libgnomevfs2-0* libgnomevfs2-common*
libgnomevfs2-extra* libgtk-vnc-2.0-0* libgvnc-1.0-0*
libincidenceeditorsng4* libk3b6* libk3b6-extracodecs*
libkactivities-bin* libkactivities-dev* libkateinterfaces4*
libkcddb4* libkcompactdisc4* libkdepim4* libkdepimdbusinterfaces4*
libkhtml5* libknotifyconfig4* libkonq-common* libkonq5abi1*
libkopete4* libkpeople3* libksieveui4* libktpcommoninternalsprivate7*
libktploggerprivate7* libktpmodelsprivate7* libktpwidgetsprivate7*
libkworkspace4abi2* libmailcommon4* libmailimporter4*
libmarblewidget19* libmediastreamer-base3* libmessagecomposer4*
libmessagecore4* libmessagelist4* libmessageviewer4* libmikmod3*
libmlt++3* libmlt6* libnoteshared4* libnss-mdns* libokularcore5*
libpam-systemd* libphonon-dev* libphonon4* libphononexperimental4*
libpimcommon4* libplasma3* libplasmaclock4abi4*
libplasmagenericshell4* libpolkit-agent-1-0* libpolkit-backend-1-0*
libpolkit-gobject-1-0* libpolkit-qt-1-1* libpulse-mainloop-glib0*
libpulse0* libpurple-bin* libpurple0* libqapt-runtime*
libreoffice-kde* libsdl-gfx1.2-5* libsdl-image1.2* libsdl-mixer1.2*
libsdl-net1.2* libsdl-pango1* libsdl-perl* libsdl-ttf2.0-0*
libsdl1.2debian* libsdl2-2.0-0* libsdl2-ttf-2.0-0* libsmpeg0*
libspice-client-glib-2.0-8* libspice-client-gtk-3.0-4*
libswt-gnome-gtk-3-jni* libswt-gtk-3-java-gcj* libsystemd-id128-0*
libsystemd0* libtelepathy-farstream3* libtelepathy-qt4-farstream2*
libtemplateparser4* libtheora-bin* libvirt-clients* libvirt-daemon*
libvirt-daemon-system* libvirt-glib-1.0-0* libvirt0* libweather-ion6*
libxine2* libxine2-misc-plugins* libxine2-plugins* libxine2-x*
lintian* lokalize* lsb-core* lskat* lxde-common* lxde-core*
lxsession* man-db* manaplus* marble* marble-plugins* melt*
modemmanager* mplayer2* mpv* mssh* network-manager* neverball*
numptyphysics* okteta* okular* okular-extra-backends* oolite*
openbox-gnome-session* openjdk-7-jdk* openjdk-7-jre*
openjdk-7-jre-headless* openmw* openmw-launcher* out-of-order* pachi*
packagekit* packagekit-tools* pairs* palapeli* parley*
partitionmanager* pavucontrol* pcsxr* performous* phonon*
phonon-backend-gstreamer* phonon-backend-gstreamer-dbg*
phonon-backend-vlc* phonon-backend-vlc-dbg* picmi* pidgin* pinball*
pingus* plasma-containments-addons* plasma-dataengines-addons*
plasma-dataengines-workspace* plasma-desktop* plasma-netbook*
plasma-nm* plasma-runner-installer* plasma-runner-telepathy-contact*
plasma-runners-addons* plasma-scriptengine-javascript*
plasma-scriptengine-superkaramba* plasma-wallpapers-addons*
plasma-widget-folderview* plasma-widget-ktorrent*
plasma-widget-lancelot* plasma-widget-menubar*
plasma-widget-networkmanagement* plasma-widgets-addons*
plasma-widgets-workspace* policykit-1* policykit-1-gnome*
polkit-kde-1* print-manager* printer-driver-gutenprint*
printer-driver-hpcups* printer-driver-postscript-hp*
printer-driver-splix* python-libvirt* python-pygame* python-pyside*
python-pyside.phonon* qapt-batch* qapt-deb-installer* qapt-utils*
qemu* qemu-kvm* qemu-system* qemu-system-arm* qemu-system-mips*
qemu-system-misc* qemu-system-ppc* qemu-system-sparc*
qemu-system-x86* qt4-qtconfig* quassel-client-kde4* quilt*
redshift-plasmoid* rekonq* rocksndiamonds* rocs* schism* scummvm*
sflphone-daemon* skanlite* sludge-engine* solarus* sonic-visualiser*
speech-dispatcher* speech-dispatcher-audio-plugins*
spice-client-glib-usb-acl-helper* step* supertux* sweeper* systemd*
systemd-ui* systemsettings* telepathy-haze* telepathy-salut*
tp-smapi-source* transcode* trophy* udisks2* umbrello* upower* uqm*
uqm-content* uqm-music* uqm-voice* uuid-runtime* virt-manager*
virt-viewer* virtinst* virtualbox* virtualbox-dkms* virtualbox-qt*
vlc* vlc-plugin-pulse* weston* x11-apps* xmp* xorg* yelp* zsdx*
The following NEW packages will be installed:
icedtea-6-jre-cacao icedtea-6-jre-jamvm libqt4-phonon
openjdk-6-jre-headless openjdk-6-jre-lib
WARNING: The following essential packages will be removed.
This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!
bsdutils libsystemd0 (due to bsdutils)
0 upgraded, 5 newly installed, 561 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 37.9 MB of archives.
After this operation, 2179 MB disk space will be freed.
You are about to do something potentially harmful.
To continue type in the phrase 'Yes, do as I say!'
?]

So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running completely
without any systemd related packages gives you a really crippled system.

Basically it would deinstall the desktop I use.

Ciao,
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Laurent Bigonville
2014-12-03 11:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Le Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:18:36 +0100,
Post by Martin Steigerwald
Post by Erwan David
Post by Martin Steigerwald
Post by Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
Post by Aaron Toponce
Post by Märk Owen
It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral
about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it
forced upon me this way.
# apt-get install upstart
# apt-get install sysvinit-core
# apt-get install openrc
No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.
Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release
after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory..."
Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME
installable without having any systemd related package installed.
The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to
remove systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all
that logind is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which
showed it was designed without any care for well known attacks.
I explicetely wrote "any systemd related package".
[...]
So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running
completely without any systemd related packages gives you a really
crippled system.
As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0
package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as
PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the "I don't want any systemd
package on my machine" use case into account you know.

But if you have that special concern, you'll have to start recompiling
the packages I'm afraid. Start with policykit and network-manager (and
other package defining a dependency against libpam-systemd) to make
them use ConsoleKit again, you would at least be able to remove the
systemd package completely.
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Martin Steigerwald
2014-12-03 12:45:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Laurent Bigonville
Le Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:18:36 +0100,
Post by Martin Steigerwald
Post by Erwan David
Post by Martin Steigerwald
Post by Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
Post by Aaron Toponce
Post by Märk Owen
It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral
about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it
forced upon me this way.
# apt-get install upstart
# apt-get install sysvinit-core
# apt-get install openrc
No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.
Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release
after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory..."
Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME
installable without having any systemd related package installed.
The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to
remove systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all
that logind is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which
showed it was designed without any care for well known attacks.
I explicetely wrote "any systemd related package".
[...]
So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running
completely without any systemd related packages gives you a really
crippled system.
As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0
package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as
PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the "I don't want any systemd
package on my machine" use case into account you know.
Post by Martin Steigerwald
So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running
completely without any systemd related packages gives you a really
crippled system.
For me that states clearly that I am perfectly aware of that.

So I do not get why you repeat it and even complain that its already explained
several times on this ML as actually I think I did not leave a trace of doubt
of my awareness of that in the way I have written this.
Post by Laurent Bigonville
But if you have that special concern, you'll have to start recompiling
the packages I'm afraid. Start with policykit and network-manager (and
other package defining a dependency against libpam-systemd) to make
them use ConsoleKit again, you would at least be able to remove the
systemd package completely.
I just showed this.

I am not sure whether I have a concern about it.

But its a topic the devuan fork can extend upon whats currently available in
Debian. Whether it would be necessary to fork Debian for that, I don´t know.
That would depend on whether maintainers of the involved Debian packages would
accept patches which can make them (maybe optionally?) use ConsoleKit again. I
bet there may be a limit on what the maintainers of the official Debian packages
would accept there.

Of course, its also thinkable to provide those patches upstream, but I have
doubt that GNOME maintainers would accept them.
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Erwan David
2014-12-03 15:13:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Laurent Bigonville
As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0
package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as
PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the "I don't want any systemd
package on my machine" use case into account you know.
Why focus on PID1 ? As I said, systemd-resolved proved to be
vulnerable to a well known attack. What makes us think that more
quality was put in systemd-logind ? Not wanting systemd means not
wanting it *at all*. I personnally do not trust it for critical system
tasks.
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Jimmy Johnson
2014-12-04 14:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erwan David
Post by Laurent Bigonville
As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0
package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as
PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the "I don't want any systemd
package on my machine" use case into account you know.
Why focus on PID1 ? As I said, systemd-resolved proved to be
vulnerable to a well known attack. What makes us think that more
quality was put in systemd-logind ? Not wanting systemd means not
wanting it *at all*. I personnally do not trust it for critical system
tasks.
First Squeeze has to get upgraded to Wheezy without any systemd
components and then upgrade Wheezy to Jessie without systemd.
--
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Debian - Wheezy - KDE 4.8.4 - AMD64 - EXT4 at sda1
Registered Linux User #380263
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Eduard Bloch
2014-12-05 23:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Hallo,
Post by Erwan David
Post by Laurent Bigonville
As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0
package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as
PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the "I don't want any systemd
package on my machine" use case into account you know.
Why focus on PID1 ? As I said, systemd-resolved proved to be
Because that set of "systemd depending packages" is BS, most of the
ones listed there are only linked with libsystemd0 and might attempt to
send a dbus message here and there, which only has some effect if and
only if systemd is PID1.

Bitching about not used features is like demonizing libselinux1.

Regards,
Eduard.
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Buntunub
2014-12-05 05:33:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Laurent Bigonville
Le Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:18:36 +0100,
Martin Steigerwald &lt;
Post by Martin Steigerwald
Post by Erwan David
Post by Martin Steigerwald
Post by Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
Aaron Toponce &lt;
Post by Aaron Toponce
Post by Märk Owen
It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral
about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it
forced upon me this way.
# apt-get install upstart
# apt-get install sysvinit-core
# apt-get install openrc
No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.
Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release
after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory..."
Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME
installable without having any systemd related package installed.
The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to
remove systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all
that logind is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which
showed it was designed without any care for well known attacks.
I explicetely wrote "any systemd related package".
[...]
So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running
completely without any systemd related packages gives you a really
crippled system.
As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0
package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as
PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the "I don't want any systemd
package on my machine" use case into account you know.
But if you have that special concern, you'll have to start recompiling
the packages I'm afraid. Start with policykit and network-manager (and
other package defining a dependency against libpam-systemd) to make
them use ConsoleKit again, you would at least be able to remove the
systemd package completely.
And so it comes full circle. This is why there is a need for a Debian fork.
/I/ don't have to do any of those things. You don't either. The good folks
at Devuan will take care of all that for you.




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Curt
2014-12-05 09:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buntunub
And so it comes full circle. This is why there is a need for a Debian fork.
/I/ don't have to do any of those things. You don't either. The good folks
at Devuan will take care of all that for you.
Fine then go fork yourselves with a Devuan.
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Ric Moore
2014-12-05 11:48:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Buntunub
And so it comes full circle. This is why there is a need for a Debian fork.
/I/ don't have to do any of those things. You don't either. The good folks
at Devuan will take care of all that for you.
Fine then go fork yourselves with a Devuan.
+1 :) Ric
--
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"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
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Aaron Toponce
2014-12-02 22:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after Jessie,
when systemd may well become compulsory..."
Most would call that FUD.
--
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o o o . o . . o o o o . o o o
Martinx - ジェームズ
2014-12-03 19:37:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron Toponce
Post by Märk Owen
It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
this way.
# apt-get install upstart
# apt-get install sysvinit-core
# apt-get install openrc
I doubt that this will work in the near future (jessie +1).

Debian/Devuan WILL NEED an `udev` alternative to keep `sysinit-core` working.

Sooner or later, there will be no more `sysvinit-core`, `upstart` or
whatever, because `systemd` guys engulfed `udev` and they are change
it to make sure it will only work with systemd = PID1, this sucks,
_this is extortion_ (kind of). Everybody that falls for that, will
regret.

Devuan will need something like `eudev` to succeed.

It is freaking unbelievable that Debian is now following RedHat after
all we achieved during those ~two decades, by ourselves.

I'm not against `systemd` itself, I'm against the lack of freedom to
choose whatever init I need/want. Systemd is here, fine, but as an
option ONLY. Well, no.

Jessie isn't Debian.

Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel
joining Devuan... lol

Cheers!
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Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
2014-12-03 20:20:22 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 17:37:02 -0200
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Sooner or later, there will be no more `sysvinit-core`, `upstart` or
whatever, because `systemd` guys engulfed `udev` and they are change
it to make sure it will only work with systemd = PID1, this sucks,
Very likely, Jēmuzu, and they will explain their actions with"Well, everyone has shifted to systemd, so there is no point..."

And we must do something...

Cheers,

Ron.
--
All that is necessary for the forces of evil to triumph
is for enough good men to do nothing.
-- Edmund Burke

-- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
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maderios
2014-12-03 20:50:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Jessie isn't Debian.
Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel
joining Devuan... lol
I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand
why some people complain about systemd.
Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone will
forget that systemd is new...
--
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Märk Owen
2014-12-03 21:18:59 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:50:05 +0100
Post by maderios
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Jessie isn't Debian.
Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel
joining Devuan... lol
I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand
why some people complain about systemd.
Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone
will forget that systemd is new...
What about the people who will want to use another init system in
Debian then? I mean, Linux is supposed to be about choice, right?

Is that still the case here? That's the true question in this debate.
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Martinx - ジェームズ
2014-12-03 21:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Märk Owen
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:50:05 +0100
Post by maderios
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Jessie isn't Debian.
Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel
joining Devuan... lol
I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand
why some people complain about systemd.
Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone
will forget that systemd is new...
What about the people who will want to use another init system in
Debian then? I mean, Linux is supposed to be about choice, right?
Is that still the case here? That's the true question in this debate.
BTW, I just mentioned a valid example:

I'm using `GRSecurity` with Debian in prod and it doesn't work with `systemd`.

I NEED `sysvinit-core` (or upstart) and there is no plans to deploy
`systemd` at my company's public data center. Since it [systemd]
doesn't work here.

If `systemd` gets fixed (to work with `GRSecurity`), then, I'll give
it a second try. Otherwise, I'll need to move to Devuan...

Lennart do not care about that:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65575 - How bad is that?
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Martin Read
2014-12-03 23:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
I'm using `GRSecurity` with Debian in prod and it doesn't work with `systemd`.
I NEED `sysvinit-core` (or upstart) and there is no plans to deploy
`systemd` at my company's public data center. Since it [systemd]
doesn't work here.
If `systemd` gets fixed (to work with `GRSecurity`), then, I'll give
it a second try. Otherwise, I'll need to move to Devuan...
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65575 - How bad is that?
A cursory search using duckduckgo with the search terms:

+grsecurity +systemd

leads me, directly and indirectly, to information on various web sites
associated with Arch Linux, Gentoo, and grsecurity which lead me to
believe that it is possible to work around the problem described in that
bug report without completely disabling CONFIG_GRKERNSEC_PROC. (Of
course, I recognize that in any given situation, it may not be
acceptable to make the necessary configuration changes.)

That said, I don't see a problem with Lennart's position in that bug
report anyway. "Well, this sounds useful, but I don't see how we can
support this, we need access to the PID directory of the sender of
messages, to collect metadata, there's really no way around it." seems
like a perfectly reasonable explanation for things not
working-as-intended on systems where that access is not available.
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Martinx - ジェームズ
2014-12-04 00:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Read
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
I'm using `GRSecurity` with Debian in prod and it doesn't work with `systemd`.
I NEED `sysvinit-core` (or upstart) and there is no plans to deploy
`systemd` at my company's public data center. Since it [systemd]
doesn't work here.
If `systemd` gets fixed (to work with `GRSecurity`), then, I'll give
it a second try. Otherwise, I'll need to move to Devuan...
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65575 - How bad is that?
+grsecurity +systemd
leads me, directly and indirectly, to information on various web sites
associated with Arch Linux, Gentoo, and grsecurity which lead me to believe
that it is possible to work around the problem described in that bug report
without completely disabling CONFIG_GRKERNSEC_PROC. (Of course, I recognize
that in any given situation, it may not be acceptable to make the necessary
configuration changes.)
That said, I don't see a problem with Lennart's position in that bug report
anyway. "Well, this sounds useful, but I don't see how we can support this,
we need access to the PID directory of the sender of messages, to collect
metadata, there's really no way around it." seems like a perfectly
reasonable explanation for things not working-as-intended on systems where
that access is not available.
Thanks for this feedback!! I tried it but, then, I wasn't with enough
time to debug it... Since it was working before, I just replaced
systemd by sysvinit and forgot about it...

Best!
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Ric Moore
2014-12-04 01:06:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Märk Owen
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:50:05 +0100
Post by maderios
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Jessie isn't Debian.
Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel
joining Devuan... lol
I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand
why some people complain about systemd.
Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone
will forget that systemd is new...
What about the people who will want to use another init system in
Debian then? I mean, Linux is supposed to be about choice, right?
Right, it IS about choice ...by those who do the choosing. :) Ric
--
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"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
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Martinx - ジェームズ
2014-12-03 21:31:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi Madeiros!

I'm also using `systemd`, I'm working to use Enlightenment with
Wayland (to kick Xorg off) and, it depends on `systemd`.

I just don't think that it is wise to put all of our eggs into the same basket.

This `systemd` being pushed everywhere looks like a huge monoculture,
which is very, very dangerous.

Also, ALL my production servers, that are public (Internet faced),
uses the GRSecurity Linux Patch, and `systemd` doesn't work with it.
So, right now, `systemd` only makes sense at Desktops. And I mean it.

So, my job/company depends on `sysvinit-core` / `upstart` and there is
no plans to use `systemd` at our servers (and I'm talking about
hundreds of Linux instances, physical servers and virtual machines).

Cheers!
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Jessie isn't Debian.
Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel
joining Devuan... lol
I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand why
some people complain about systemd.
Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone will
forget that systemd is new...
--
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Martin Read
2014-12-03 21:07:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Debian/Devuan WILL NEED an `udev` alternative to keep `sysinit-core` working.
Perhaps. On the other hand, they might only need an alternative
implementation of the user-space glue that makes kdbus work.
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Devuan will need something like `eudev` to succeed.
Conveniently, eudev already exists, has active maintainers, and is
readily obtainable in source code form. Anyone willing to embark on a
project like Devuan should be perfectly capable of getting it packaged.
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Jessie isn't Debian.
So you say. Others have a different opinion.
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Martinx - ジェームズ
2014-12-05 01:46:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Read
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Jessie isn't Debian.
So you say. Others have a different opinion.
Absolutely, it is just an opinion, I know.

Also, it seems to be Joey's opinion too: "It's become abundantly clear
that this is no longer the project I
originally joined in 1996."

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/11/msg00174.html

And, Joey's opinion is very, very strong. He can talk about this, more
than anyone.

So, Jessie isn't Debian anymore... Soon or later, everybody will realize that.

Right now, I'm very concerned about Debian's stability, I'm using it
(since Potato) because it is _stable_, release after release, but,
when with systemd, it will not be that stable anymore, it is
impossible to be, mostly because systemd itself it too new and poorly
designed, not ready for production. Maybe in ~2020, who knows...

What is happening with Debian is just crazy.

Best!
Thiago
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Steve McIntyre
2014-12-05 13:45:47 UTC
Permalink
[ Apologies to others for maybe prolonging this, but I can't let this
go uncorrected... ]
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Post by Martin Read
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Jessie isn't Debian.
So you say. Others have a different opinion.
Absolutely, it is just an opinion, I know.
Also, it seems to be Joey's opinion too: "It's become abundantly clear
that this is no longer the project I
originally joined in 1996."
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/11/msg00174.html
And, Joey's opinion is very, very strong. He can talk about this, more
than anyone.
So, Jessie isn't Debian anymore... Soon or later, everybody will realize that.
Right now, I'm very concerned about Debian's stability, I'm using it
(since Potato) because it is _stable_, release after release, but,
when with systemd, it will not be that stable anymore, it is
impossible to be, mostly because systemd itself it too new and poorly
designed, not ready for production. Maybe in ~2020, who knows...
Spout crap if you like (but please do it elsewhere), but don't put
words into Joey's mouth. As he later clarified in
http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/on_leaving/ :

"I left Debian. I don't really have a lot to say about why, but I do
want to clear one thing up right away. It's not about systemd."
--
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"...In the UNIX world, people tend to interpret `non-technical user'
as meaning someone who's only ever written one device driver." -- Daniel Pead
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Martinx - ジェームズ
2014-12-05 16:19:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve McIntyre
[ Apologies to others for maybe prolonging this, but I can't let this
go uncorrected... ]
Me too...
Post by Steve McIntyre
Spout crap if you like (but please do it elsewhere), but don't put
words into Joey's mouth. As he later clarified in
"I left Debian. I don't really have a lot to say about why, but I do
want to clear one thing up right away. It's not about systemd."
I'm not. I'm just trying to interpret what he said in the middle of
this context / mess.
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Lisi Reisz
2014-12-05 17:19:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Post by Steve McIntyre
[ Apologies to others for maybe prolonging this, but I can't let this
go uncorrected... ]
Me too...
Post by Steve McIntyre
Spout crap if you like (but please do it elsewhere), but don't put
words into Joey's mouth. As he later clarified in
"I left Debian. I don't really have a lot to say about why, but I do
want to clear one thing up right away. It's not about systemd."
I'm not. I'm just trying to interpret what he said in the middle of
this context / mess.
I.e put words into his mouth and completely alter what he said.

If you are not happy with Debian, then please stop using it. If you are
happy, use it. Don't misquote "the great and the good" to pretend they
support you.

Lisi
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Tony van der Hoff
2014-12-05 17:42:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lisi Reisz
Post by Martinx - ジェームズ
Post by Steve McIntyre
[ Apologies to others for maybe prolonging this, but I can't let this
go uncorrected... ]
Me too...
Post by Steve McIntyre
Spout crap if you like (but please do it elsewhere), but don't put
words into Joey's mouth. As he later clarified in
"I left Debian. I don't really have a lot to say about why, but I do
want to clear one thing up right away. It's not about systemd."
I'm not. I'm just trying to interpret what he said in the middle of
this context / mess.
I.e put words into his mouth and completely alter what he said.
If you are not happy with Debian, then please stop using it. If you are
happy, use it. Don't misquote "the great and the good" to pretend they
support you.
++

What he said didn't require interpreting. Just take it at face value,
rather than build a conspiracy out of it. There is no mess.
--
Tony van der Hoff | mailto:***@vanderhoff.org
Buckinghamshire, England |
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